Analysis of Jack Johnsons style.

[Dr. Z]

Prove to me Johnson was a super middleweight from 1901 and beyond. This is a hoot.

So there is no proof. I thought so. Johnson was not 168 or below in 1901. Now Burns, who Johnson fought in 1908 was listed at 168 pounds.

Got it?

[Bronson66]

So there is no proof. I thought so. Johnson was not 168 or below in 1901. Now Burns, who Johnson fought in 1908 was listed at 168 pounds.

Got it?

This was my post.

We have Adam Pollack's quoted opinion on it,Adam has written3 books on Johnson and must be considered the paramount expert on him.
We have Adam Pollack's quoted opinion on it,Adam has written3 books on Johnson and must be considered the paramount expert on him.
We also have the fact that 10 months earlier Johnson weighed168lbs for a fight,and 2 years after the Choynski fight Johnson scaled 178lbs against Sam McVey..


Johnson scaled 168lbs on the 20th of April 1900 [ten months earlier] when he fought Jim McCormick.


Box Rec 1900-03-20.Jack Johnson 168lbs v Jim McCormick 175lbs.

1900-04-20

168

Jim McCormick

175

"

"At that time he was not much more than a middleweight".Galveston Daily News March 20th 1900
" It is fair to estimate that both Choynski and Johnson weighed about17Olbs for this fight,ad both weighed around that for fights before and after."
" No official weights were taken"

"McCormick weighed in at 175lbs. 22 years old Johnson at168lbs,a mere supermiddleweight by todays standards "Pollack page55 Jack Johnson The Rise.


As to your claims of Johnson quitting to Klon***e.

" At first Johnson did well and even dropped Klon***e in the second round.However eventually Jack grew very fatigued,and held incessantly .Klon***e was in much better shape,and consistently pounded away with solid blows as the hurt/tired Johnson,clinched to survive,avoid punishment and stall .

Eventually at the Police's request the referee stopped the bout."
pages 46 and 47 .Jack Johnson The Rise

"Regardless,contrary to the erroneous belief of some,Johnson was not dropped or knocked out,nor did he quit.
Pollack page 47 Same book.
Pollack provides 4 primary newspaper sources for the result.
The Daily Inter Ocean Chicago Record.
The Chicago Chronicle.
The Chicago Times/Herald.
The Daily Illinois State Register.

NONE SAY JOHNSON QUIT

GOT IT?

[Dr. Z]

This was my post.

We have Adam Pollack's quoted opinion on it,Adam has written3 books on Johnson and must be considered the paramount expert on him.
We have Adam Pollack's quoted opinion on it,Adam has written3 books on Johnson and must be considered the paramount expert on him.
We also have the fact that 10 months earlier Johnson weighed168lbs for a fight,and 2 years after the Choynski fight Johnson scaled 178lbs against Sam McVey..


Johnson scaled 168lbs on the 20th of April 1900 [ten months earlier] when he fought Jim McCormick.


Box Rec 1900-03-20.Jack Johnson 168lbs v Jim McCormick 175lbs.

1900-04-20

168

Jim McCormick

175

GOT IT?

Nice of you to avoid the fact that you make errors ( tons of them ) and Pollack did not say it. Johnson was a super middleweight in 1901? He was only 173 vs Sam Mcvey?

Wrong ! The wasn't any super middleweight or light heavyweight division in 1901. Johnson was a heavyweight. I remain mystified how a big fan of Jack could be so misinformed. It must be you claimed 137 IQ. Anyone who reads you stuff knows that is a lie too.

Yeah, I GOT IT.

[Bronson66]

Nice of you to avoid the fact that you make errors ( tons of them ) and Pollack did not say it. Johnson was a super middleweight in 1901? He was only 173 vs Sam Mcvey?

Wrong ! The was any super middleweight or light heavyweight division in 1901. Johsnon was a heavyweight. I remain mystified how a big fan of Jack could be so misinformed. It must be you claimed 137 IQ. Anyone who reads you stuff knows that is a lie too.

Yeah, I GOT IT.

I never said there was either a supermiddleweight or Lhvy division in1901.
This is the Pollack quote I posted.

"McCormick weighed in at 175lbs. 22 years old Johnson at168lbs,a mere supermiddleweight by todays standards "Pollack page55 Jack Johnson The Rise


Pollack states both Choynski and Johnson were around 170lbs for their fight and I posted that quote.
You cannot write,you cannot read, you cannot spell,you cannot construct a sentence,or formulate a logical argument.

WTF are you doing here?
As regards the IQ, I responded to a direct question on Classic,that was over ten years ago. I, along with most of my year took IQ tests at college.I twice.My rating was 135,1st test,132 2nd test.I was at pains to say I put very little stock in such tests ,and consider myself of average intelligence,[ I was slightly above the middle order in my class]., but certainly no Einstein,my Wife's IQ is higher than mine .

With age I expect mine is significantly lower than it once was,but still plenty high enough to make a laughing stock out of a Chimp like you.

You have done your best to turn Apples thread into a Johnson hate fest,just as you do with any Ali or Louis threads.You're a virus ,a malignant body of virulent , hatred,yet you have the bare faced gall to accuse me of getting threads closed.

Add a lack of complete self awareness to your long list of personality failings.

[Bronson66]

I'll quote another,"Johnson used to stand flat footed, his back foot at a near right angle to his left,wait for his opponent to come in. block and parry his shots and rip him to pieces with uppercuts."
"I never lead,defence will always win ,if it's good enough."Johnson.

Johnson was a counter puncher,never concerned with attack, but all about defence ,blocking,parrying and picking off punches,and closing down opponents offensive moves. great reflexes,excellent jab,great right uppercut that he was capable of getting his whole body weight into.
Definitely not a crowd pleaser, economical and he did just enough to win.
A good puncher,with an average chin which he rarely put in jeopardy.

Not in thrall to going for the ko in most cases, I see him as rather like an early Wlad in that he took few chances until he was satisfied he had little to fear from his opponent.

This summary is something of an apology to "Them Apples", for the time I have taken up demolishing Dr Duck's ridiculouly negative Johnson posts.
I hope he will forgive me?

[them_apples]

Johnson was a counter puncher,never concerned with attack, but all about defence ,blocking,parrying and picking off punches,and closing down opponents offensive moves. great reflexes,excellent jab,great right uppercut that he was capable of getting his whole body weight into.
Definitely not a crowd pleaser, economical and he did just enough to win.
A good puncher,with an average chin which he rarely put in jeopardy.

Not in thrall to going for the ko in most cases, I see him as rather like an early Wlad in that he took few chances until he was satisfied he had little to fear from his opponent.

This summary is something of an apology to "Them Apples", for the time I have taken up demolishing Dr Duck's ridiculouly negative Johnson posts.
I hope he will forgive me?

Johnson actually had a very interesting style. The footage of him sparring when he was 50 is the closest thing well get to see of how he actually fought. There really isn’t anyone who fights like that anymore, but the savvy was incredible to watch. Saddler I suppose had a similar style. He did this one move where he jabs to the right and brings his forearm to bear on his opponents neck, gripping the back of their neck and throwing a very hard uppercut to the chin with his right. He had a position where it looks like he grabs the arm pit and closes the distance. Then opens it up himself and shoots an uppercut in. His defense it seems to be based around this grip, and he moves with the punches. In his hold you can see its pretty much impossible for him to take any damage. If only we couldnsee his prime in good footage, without that choppy frame rate (it doesnt have enough frames to see what he move’s like).

[Bronson66]

Johnson actually had a very interesting style. The footage of him sparring when he was 50 is the closest thing well get to see of how he actually fought. There really isnâÃÂÃÂt anyone who fights like that anymore, but the savvy was incredible to watch. Saddler I suppose had a similar style. He did this one move where he jabs to the right and brings his forearm to bear on his opponents neck, gripping the back of their neck and throwing a very hard uppercut to the chin with his right. He had a position where it looks like he grabs the arm pit and closes the distance. Then opens it up himself and shoots an uppercut in. His defense it seems to be based around this grip, and he moves with the punches. In his hold you can see its pretty much impossible for him to take any damage. If only we couldnsee his prime in good footage, without that choppy frame rate (it doesnt have enough frames to see what he moveâÃÂÃÂs like).

You are referring to his spar with Jeannette for War Bonds,Johnson was 66 years old.
Here is some earlier footage.

Jack Johnson & Sam Langford RARE Training in COLOR (youtube.com)

[Willie Pep 229]

I never said there was either a supermiddleweight or Lhvy division in1901.
This is the Pollack quote I posted.

"McCormick weighed in at 175lbs. 22 years old Johnson at168lbs,a mere supermiddleweight by todays standards "Pollack page55 Jack Johnson The Rise


Pollack states both Choynski and Johnson were around 170lbs for their fight and I posted that quote.
You cannot write,you cannot read, you cannot spell,you cannot construct a sentence,or formulate a logical argument.

WTF are you doing here?
As regards the IQ, I responded to a direct question on Classic,that was over ten years ago. I, along with most of my year took IQ tests at college.I twice.My rating was 135,1st test,132 2nd test.I was at pains to say I put very little stock in such tests ,and consider myself of average intelligence,[ I was slightly above the middle order in my class]., but certainly no Einstein,my Wife's IQ is higher than mine .

With age I expect mine is significantly lower than it once was,but still plenty high enough to make a laughing stock out of a Chimp like you.

You have done your best to turn Apples thread into a Johnson hate fest,just as you do with any Ali or Louis threads.You're a virus ,a malignant body of virulent , hatred,yet you have the bare faced gall to accuse me of getting threads closed.

Add a lack of complete self awareness to your long list of personality failings.

IQ tests after the age of four diminish in value, by the age of 12 are almost useless and after that they are meaningless.

The more the test in question becomes depended on achieved skills the less it can measure pure intelligence.

IQ test are valid, kinda, in preschool, but college achievment distorts the result.

Take two men. One attends college the other is forced to drop out of high school to work.

We will assume they are of the same raw intelligence, but then at the age of 22 you sit them down for an IQ test.

Just the simple fact that one man took a multitude of other tests before, while in college, and the second man has not seen a test since 8th grade. Nerves alone, will diminish the second man's score, dramatically.

An IQ test after the age of seven is really good for a pissing contest, nothing more.

[Bronson66]

IQ tests after the age of four diminish in value, by the age of 12 are almost useless and after that they are meaningless.

The more the test in question becomes depended on achieved skills the less it can measure pure intelligence.

IQ test are valid, kinda, in preschool, but college achievment distorts the result.

Take two men. One attends college the other is forced to drop out of high school to work.

We will assume they are of the same raw intelligence, but then at the age of 22 you sit them down for an IQ test.

Just the simple fact that one man took a multitude of other tests before, while in college, and the second man has not seen a test since 8th grade. Nerves alone, will diminish the second man's score, dramatically.

An IQ test after the age of seven is really good for a pissing contest, nothing more.

I have absolutely no argument with your statement.
I've never placed any gravitas on them myself.
Dr Z has tried to imply I have bragged about my own results on another site ,that is not the case,I've nothing to brag about.

For the record I consider myself of average intelligence , and that I am an average poster.
I am however a truthful one, which is more than can be said for him!
I've a friend who is a member of Mensa,he has about as much common sense as a box of rocks.

[them_apples]

You are referring to his spar with Jeannette for War Bonds,Johnson was 66 years old.
Here is some earlier footage.

Jack Johnson & Sam Langford RARE Training in COLOR (youtube.com)​

I am and yes he is old. But the footage is at a better frame rate, you can at least see how he moves

the one thing old choppy footage removes is the loose snappy movements. Because you need more frames to describe the subtleties like that. So they appear a lot more janky even if upscaled. Although the AI is improving a lot by generating frames that match the footage