Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey. Mixed legacies, dubious wins/ draws and lot of ducks?

[Slugfester]

Didn't Jeff have to lose about 60 lbs.? That never augers well.

[Dr. Z]

Didn't Jeff have to lose about 60 lbs.? That never augers well.

This thread is not about Jeffries but yes he had to lose about 60 pounds. He was inactive for six yeas and Johnson hired his old trainer Delany not to mention is age are reasons why he lost. No fighter in ring history has won big fight with the above factors.

I have seen a film that runs about 30 minuets. It might shock some to learn that Jeffries despite all of the handicaps of weight loss, 6 year of inactivity, and his age won rounds 4 and 9 with some round to close to call in the first ten rounds. The finsih from round 11-15 was all Johnson's.

[billeau2]

This is not a Jeffries thread as he didn't duck Johnson did he? No. He fought him at as old man, 6 years removed from the ring. End of. No more replies from me on this off tangent point.

Now I did include Dempsey in the thread. The two Jacks. How is the factual review going for you? What can you add? Did I miss any fighters on them in your opinion?

Which other great heavyweight champions should I include in a new ducks thread? Remember I am only judging a champion in his active years ducking hall of fame or very good opponents. Are you interested? I grade everyone the same. Be it Black, White, Latino, Pacific Islander, Native American, or Asian.

Your right! don't listen to em Brother Q, or Z... We can move those goal posts as narrow as we want! Right? Please don't tell the other haters here about my thread: "Best heavyweight team of guys with the same first initial to their last name, fighting at the same time!" See Ali was not all that! He never had a fellow heavyweight with the same first letter of his name!!!!

Maybe after that I will co host another thread with Queen B: "The best heavyweight with Gigantism!

[billeau2]

This is not a Jeffries thread as he didn't duck Johnson did he? No. He fought him at as old man, 6 years removed from the ring. End of. No more replies from me on this off tangent point.

Now I did include Dempsey in the thread. The two Jacks. How is the factual review going for you? What can you add? Did I miss any fighters on them in your opinion?

Which other great heavyweight champions should I include in a new ducks thread? Remember I am only judging a champion in his active years ducking hall of fame or very good opponents. Are you interested? I grade everyone the same. Be it Black, White, Latino, Pacific Islander, Native American, or Asian.

That was sure "white" of ya to include Jack... Yer a solid one doc, a solid one indeed and A solid Bellend, is a functional Bellend.

[Dr. Z]

Your right! don't listen to em Brother Q, or Z... We can move those goal posts as narrow as we want! Right? Please don't tell the other haters here about my thread: "Best heavyweight team of guys with the same first initial to their last name, fighting at the same time!" See Ali was not all that! He never had a fellow heavyweight with the same first letter of his name!!!!

Maybe after that I will co host another thread with Queen B: "The best heavyweight with Gigantism!

Carnera did duck ANYONE. He was not very good, and suffered from Ginantism. He fought ranked black contenders such as Godfrey and Gains! Not to mention other back fighters. And fought the most of best white fighters of the times. Give it up to him. He really does not fit the thread.

I would like to read Queen B's take on him too. If you want me to review him in this thread, I will.

[Marchegiano]

Trav is a ****ing unstoppable juggernaut and I commend him for it. What a ****ing mensch ya know, still willing to play this game. Still willing to act like, even though he knows better, these propaganda piece have nothing to do with the racism of the authors themselves. Still arguing in terms of source and proof. What a ****ing guy.


I'm done playing that game. Dr. Z forgives Jack Dempsey's outrageous amount of ducking, spins it like as if it wasn't a duck, and then holds other fighters in similar situations to their bull as ducks, because he's a racist old white man frustrated the world is moving past the era when we exalt boxers who ducked an entire race like as if they didn't.


I see no mention of Dempsey ducking Lester but Johnson ducked Clark ... Whatever bro, I'm tired of playing like you're tardy. You have no mental disability, yer just an old racist **** and let's be real man my generation ain't got time for yer **** and never did. Old ****ers and children play that game and that's it.

[Dr. Z]

Trav is a ****ing unstoppable juggernaut and I commend him for it. What a ****ing mensch ya know, still willing to play this game. Still willing to act like, even though he knows better, these propaganda piece have nothing to do with the racism of the authors themselves. Still arguing in terms of source and proof. What a ****ing guy.


I'm done playing that game. Dr. Z forgives Jack Dempsey's outrageous amount of ducking, spins it like as if it wasn't a duck, and then holds other fighters in similar situations to their bull as ducks, because he's a racist old white man frustrated the world is moving past the era when we exalt boxers who ducked an entire race like as if they didn't.


I see no mention of Dempsey ducking Lester but Johnson ducked Clark ... Whatever bro, I'm tired of playing like you're tardy. You have no mental disability, yer just an old racist **** and let's be real man my generation ain't got time for yer **** and never did. Old ****ers and children play that game and that's it.

Good research! I should add Jeff Clark, you are correct. Tell me more about Clark? What years do you think Dempsey should have fought him?

If you're interested, Jeff Clark has the most fights against Hall of Famers (40 fights against 7 opponents) without actually, himself, being in the Hall of Fame. He has a record of 27-6-6 with 1 no contest and 11 knockouts). These 40 bouts represent about 28% of his career fights. How is that for research!

John Lester Johnson was a journeyman fighter that Dempsey had a news loss against him . I did not mention him in the thread. Re-read post #1 in this thread.

I do not forgive Dempsey for ducking of Wills and Greb two hall of fame guys. Nor am I an old white guy. You have me very wrong.

[GhostofDempsey]

Dempsey didn't duck Wills or Greb. The Wills debacle has been discussed to death. In '21 Kearns offered him $5K if he could knock out Dempsey in sparring. He turned down the offer. During at least two negotiations his promoters/managers failed to deliver on the money demanded up front. When Harry Frazee offered $350K for the fight in Boston, NY or Jersey and Kearns accepted, none of those states/cities would allow the fight. I would urge anyone who wants to know the details with context to read Pollack's second Dempsey bio that was released this year. Aside from that, who was Wills beating in '22/'23--a half blind Langford? LHW Norfolk? He lost to Dempsey's sparring partner Tate twice in '22 and ducked Dempsey's other sparring partner George Godfrey from '23 - '25, refusing to give him a shot at his World Colored title.

Greb was a MW, and there was no upside to Dempsey fighting him. If he wins he beat a MW, if he loses he lost to a MW. Most fans didn't think it would be competitive. On September 1st 1920, Dempsey sparred Greb for 3 rounds after a 14 month layoff. Dempsey agreed to go easy on him as both of them had a fight coming up in five days. Greb went all in, even got a headbutt on Dempsey's eye. Still, Dempsey moved him backwards and according to some press members in attendance could have ended it at any time. In 1922 164 pound Greb fought 163 pound Jeff Smith to a draw, but took a tremendous beating with one of his eyes swelled shut. Not a good look for a MW who wants to challenge the HW champ. Greb was not a big puncher, he would not have been able to keep Dempsey off of him. Then there's the question of which promoter was actually willing to put up the money for the fight. Dempsey agreed to fight him but was rightfully skeptical about a lucrative offer being secured.

[Willie Pep 229]

Dempsey didn't duck Wills or Greb. The Wills debacle has been discussed to death. In '21 Kearns offered him $5K if he could knock out Dempsey in sparring. He turned down the offer. During at least two negotiations his promoters/managers failed to deliver on the money demanded up front. When Harry Frazee offered $350K for the fight in Boston, NY or Jersey and Kearns accepted, none of those states/cities would allow the fight. I would urge anyone who wants to know the details with context to read Pollack's second Dempsey bio that was released this year. Aside from that, who was Wills beating in '22/'23--a half blind Langford? LHW Norfolk? He lost to Dempsey's sparring partner Tate twice in '22 and ducked Dempsey's other sparring partner George Godfrey from '23 - '25, refusing to give him a shot at his World Colored title.

Greb was a MW, and there was no upside to Dempsey fighting him. If he wins he beat a MW, if he loses he lost to a MW. Most fans didn't think it would be competitive. On September 1st 1920, Dempsey sparred Greb for 3 rounds after a 14 month layoff. Dempsey agreed to go easy on him as both of them had a fight coming up in five days. Greb went all in, even got a headbutt on Dempsey's eye. Still, Dempsey moved him backwards and according to some press members in attendance could have ended it at any time. In 1922 164 pound Greb fought 163 pound Jeff Smith to a draw, but took a tremendous beating with one of his eyes swelled shut. Not a good look for a MW who wants to challenge the HW champ. Greb was not a big puncher, he would not have been able to keep Dempsey off of him. Then there's the question of which promoter was actually willing to put up the money for the fight. Dempsey agreed to fight him but was rightfully skeptical about a lucrative offer being secured.

The best offer Dempsey ever got for fighting Greb in Pittsburgh was for a 100K guarantee and 50% of the gate.

Kearns did not like % deals and made Rickard meet his 500K guarantee (plus a % of film rights) for Firpo.

Kearns toyed with the Pittsburg people during this period because the NYSAC threatened to strip Dempsey's title. In1922 they gave Dempsey 60 (or 30) days to sign with Wills.

Kearns blew off the threat and started talking to Pittsburgh. On the very day the deadline came the NYSAC and Jim Farley stuck their tail between their legs and stayed silent.

That same day, when it was obvious NYSAC was impotent, Kearns went to the newspapers and publicly announced the Greb fight was off, the gurantee was too low.

Then Kearns took off for the far west and eventually Shelby.

Kearns never considered Greb worth fighting and only used him so he could publicly ***** slap Farley and the NYSAC for threating to strip Dempsey; making them look foolish.

[GhostofDempsey]

The best offer Dempsey ever got for fighting Greb in Pittsburgh was for 100K guarantee and 50% of the gate.

Kearns did not like % deals and made Rickard meet his 500'k guarantee for Firpo.

Kearns toyed with the Pittsburg people during the period the NYSAC threatened to strip Dempsey's title. In 1922 they gave Dempsey 60 (or30) days to sign with Wills.

Kearns blew off the threat and started talking to Pittsburgh. They very day the deadline came the NYSAC and Jim Farley stuck their tail between their legs and stayed silent.

Thar same day, when it was obvious NYSAC was impotent, publicly announced the Greb was off, the gurantee was too low.

Then Kearns took off for the far west and eventually Shelby.

Kearns never considered Greb worth fighting and only used him so he could publicly ***** slap Farley and the NYSAC for threating to strip Dempsey; making them look foolish.

Makes sense. Dempsey had already made over $300K for Carpentier the year prior. Generated a $1.7 million dollar gate. He was the superstar of boxing. At the time of his death, Greb's estate was only worth about $77K. It ended up being worth half that after probate. He once challenged Willard and claimed he would donate the purse to the Red Cross. He also challenged Harry Wills “in an arena or a gym just to prove that the best black heavyweight in the world wasn’t much.” He wasn't a big draw and despite his windmill aggressive fighting style he was often booed by fans for excessive clinching, holding and fouls.