Jack Johnson and Jack Dempsey. Mixed legacies, dubious wins/ draws and lot of ducks?

[Dr. Z]

The best fighters should face Hall of Fame competition in their opponents' primes. They should not DUCK them over years. Maybe missing out on one guy is okay. I understand that not every fight can be made. Missing out on several hall of fame fighters while they are active is shameful. Again I get there there is a year where a fight can not be made but Ducking them all together is a different story.



Let's look at the two Jack's, popular heavyweights, fighters who make the top ten as ATG greats at heavyweight according to the media and see who they fared as active champions vs. hall of fame competition in their prime, or at least very good competition.Who did they miss out on? We shall confine this thread to 1899-1930 Jack Johsnson, and Jack Dempsey. Historians will say they foguth weak competition as champion in title fights in comparison to the other great champions. Well did they?


Let's examine. Ready, set ,go!


#1 Jack Johnson.

He was champion for 1909-1915. Hall of Fame opponents not fought in their prime : Sam Langford, Joe Jeannetee, and Sam Mcvey.

Very good competition missed: Jeff Clark and Gunboat Smith

Fights that never happened of outside Johnson's prime: Harry Wills.

3 ducks for his championship tenure *** three ducks
2 very good missed opportunity 1/2 + 1/2 a duck
Record vs. hall for fame opponents as fighters from 1908-1916 1-1
Total ducks as champion **** 4 ducks.

Dubious happenings as champion; Draw with middleweight O'bnrien. Knocked down by middle - weight Ketchel. Draw with Journeyman Jim Battling Johnson.

Good fighters lost while not champion include a KO in 3 to Joe Choyski, Hank Griffin and Marvin Hart, and a novice Joe Jeanette.



#2 Jack Dempsey

He was champion from 1919 - 1926. Hall of fame opponents not fought in their prime Harry Wills. Harry Greb. Both are huge holes in his resume.

Hall of fame opponents missed. Two ducks in Wills and Harry Greb

Very good competition missed. Kid Norfolk

Fights that never happened outside of Dempsey's prime. None. Dempsey's last fight was when at 32.

2 ducks during his tenure ** two ducks
Very good missed opportunity 1/2 a duck
Total ducks as champion. 2 1/2 ducks

Dubious happenings as champion. Floored by Fripo and knocked out of the ring and helped by spectators ( which is against the rules) back in it. Whent low vs Sharkey and Ko's him complaining to the ref. Was losing and hurting. vs Bill Brennane until coming on to KO him late. Badly beaten, losing 18 of 20 rounds to Tunney. Accused of cheating vs.various opponents.

Good fighters lost to while not champion include a KO1 loss to Flynn and a points loss to Meeahn . And a new decision loss to John Lester Johnson.


IMO, neither man is a top ten all time heavyweight and would be badly beaten in modern times. And they ducked their best competition as champion which is where legacies are made.


Thoughts? I could add more names. Jeff Clark was mentioned for Dempsey.

[tokon]

Good post, certainly food for thought, thanks.

[Dr. Z]

Good post, certainly food for thought, thanks.

You are welcome.

Yes, it is. I have drilled down on Johnson. You would be shocked to learn how much he was accused of lying about fixed fights, fouling, ( which he did often ) and sometimes getting booed during the match, as he and his opponents were not trying. People were demanding the money back. He also quit twice in matches.


When you factor in the above and reveal his struggles and losses to middle to super weights ( 3 or more of them ), and numerous losses and draws to other heavyweights under 200 lbs or journeyman well....

The information that has been revealed will give you a better evaluation of him in the ring. He was not a top 10 all time great heavyweight. Famous? Of Course, but in the ring he was not all that.


Historians who have nice things to say about him did not have the internet which is an awesome tool to review most of his fights ( they did not have access to many first hand new reviews either ) nor did they have the convenience of watching many of his fights on the web. They had to see him live, which they rarely did.


Now some fans to this day will fight / deny the facts on their hero's which is Johnson's case he is anything but a selfish man who beat on the sick and women. He can be portrayed as a hero due the social situations of the times...but that is a different story and not the point if this thread.

[travestyny]

You can't forget Jim Jeffries in the same time frame that ducked Jack Johnson for many years and also Sam McVey.

[Dr. Z]

That has nothing to do with this thread. Jeffries and Delany had a bitter spilt and Delaney was in Johnson corner for the fight. There is the history. Now back to the topic of this thread.

[travestyny]

That has nothing to do with this thread. Jeffries and Delany had a bitter spilt and Delany was in Johnson corner for the fight. There is the history. Now back to the topic of this thread.

Well he brings up some good points and I just thought we should expand your list a little. I mean no reason to be biased by pointing out only two. Jeffries seemed to be a very timid and afraid champion, especially when it came to McVey and Johnson. It took him years to work up his courage to face Johnson, and that's only because the racists were begging him to show how superior Whites are. It's a shame he failed.

[Dr. Z]

Well he brings up some good points and I just thought we should expand your list a little. I mean no reason to be biased by pointing out only two. Jeffries seemed to be a very timid and afraid champion, especially when it came to McVey and Johnson. It took him years to work up his courage to face Johnson, and that's only because the racists were begging him to show how superior Whites are. It's a shame he failed.

This is not a Jeffries thread as he didn't duck Johnson did he? No. He fought him at as old man, 6 years removed from the ring. End of. No more replies from me on this off tangent point.

Now I did include Dempsey in the thread. The two Jacks. How is the factual review going for you? What can you add? Did I miss any fighters on them in your opinion?

Which other great heavyweight champions should I include in a new ducks thread? Remember I am only judging a champion in his active years ducking hall of fame or very good opponents. Are you interested? I grade everyone the same. Be it Black, White, Latino, Pacific Islander, Native American, or Asian.

[travestyny]

This is not a Jeffries thread as he didn't duck Johnson did he? No. He fought him at an old man, 6 years removed from the ring. End of. No more replies from me on this off tangent point.

Now I did include Dempsey in the thread. The two Jacks. How is the factual review going for you? What can you add? Did I miss any fighters?

Which other great heavyweight champions should I include in a new ducks thread? Remember I am only judging a champion in his active years ducking hall of fame or very good opponents. Are you interested? I grade everyone the same. Be it Black, White, Latino, Pacific Islander, Native American, or Asian.

Sure he did. He ducked Johnson for years. He also ducked McVey.


I can add a whole lot as you left out lots of context. We know Johnson tried to fight Wills. Also tried to fight the other guys on that list. But you already know that. We know he broke his arm vs. Battling Jim. We know you are a butthurt biased turd.


But what we don't know is why you don't admit Jeffries ducked McVey and Johnson, and then got the shlt beat out of him by the man who you claim wasn't a good champion. It was a pathetic performance and looking at him getting beat around the ring must have been very sad for you.


As for who to add, I already told you. Add Jeffries to the list. He reportedly scared shltless of Johnson, which makes sense. He took an old down home asswhoopn.

[Dr. Z]

travestyny

Sure he did. He ducked Johnson for years. He also ducked McVey.


I can add a whole lot as you left out lots of context. We know Johnson tried to fight Wills. Also tried to fight the other guys on that list. But you already know that. We know he broke his arm vs. Battling Jim. We know you are a butthurt biased turd.


But what we don't know is why you don't admit Jeffries ducked McVey and Johnson, and then got the shlt beat out of him by the man who you claim wasn't a good champion. It was a pathetic performance and looking at him getting beat around the ring must have been very sad for you.


As for who to add, I already told you. Add Jeffries to the list. He reportedly scared shltless of Johnson, which makes sense. He took an old down home asswhoopn.

Jim Jeffries the champion for 1899- 1905. Okay let me examine.

Who did he duck? The hall of fame opponents and of the very good ones while he was active as champion. Let us examine. Sam Mcvey was a teenager and unknown at the time. He also quit boxing in 1904-1905. Returning to the ring in 1906 when Jerrries retired!

While there was a clipping in the press, the press newspaper reported that the offer to fight Sam Mcvey was peanuts compared to his offers to fight Fitz and Corbett for the second time. No duck here. We have a narrow time line and a very young and green fighter.

He returned for a comeback fight old, and rusty having not fought for 6 years to fight Jack Johnson on his worst ring shape. So he did not miss fighting him.

Had they fought in 1899 - 1904 Jeffries would have very likely beaten Jack Johnson as the two men have quite a few opponents in common and Jeffires in all of these fights with Choynski, Griffin, Everett , Kennedy and Munore definitely had the better results! In all five contests.

But Johnson lost in the 1905 Marvin Hart fight billed as an elimination fight to meet Jeffries so that was that.

But did he miss anyone else?

We have to look at Kid McCoy who was scheduled to fight in late 1900 but that fight fell through. Illness was to blame on the tricky McCoy. Had McCoy beaten late Corbett 1900 he might have received a shot but as it was he was Ko'D by Corbett.

McCoy had fights with Corbett, Sharkey, Ruhlin, Maher and Choynski ( hall of fame fighters winning 3 of the 5 matches so he definitely would have been a fine addition to Jeffries resume.

1/ 2 duck for Jeffries in his championship tenure.

Jeffries was a fine champion as fought just about even one while he was lineal champion and active.

Now that that has been addressed anyone else? Go on....you can pick any champion for 1880 - 2023! I do have good information as you can see on them all.

- Dr. Z

[travestyny]

Jim Jeffries the champion for 1899- 1905. Okay let me examine.

Who did he duck? The hall of fame opponents and of the very good ones while he was active as champion. Let us examine. Sam Mcvey was a teenager and unknown at the time. He also quit boxing in 1904-1905. Returning to the ring in 1906 when Jerrries retired!

While there was a clipping in the press, the press newspaper reported that the offer to fight Sam Mcvey was peanuts compared to his offers to fight Fitz and Corbett for the second time. No duck here. We have a narrow time line and a very young and green fighter.

He returned for a comeback fight old, and rusty having not fought for 6 years to fight Jack Johnson on his worst ring shape. So he did not miss fighting him.

Had they fought in 1899 - 1904 Jeffries would have very likely beaten Jack Johnson as the two men have quite a few opponents in common and Jeffires in all of these fights with Choynski, Griffin, Everett , Kennedy and Munore definitely had the better results! In all five contests.

But Johnson lost in the 1905 Marvin Hart fight billed as an elimination fight to meet Jeffries so that was that.

But did he miss anyone else?

We have to look at Kid McCoy who was scheduled to fight in late 1900 but that fight fell through. Illness was to blame on the tricky McCoy. Had McCoy beaten late Corbett 1900 he might have received a shot but as it was he was Ko'D by Corbett.

McCoy had fights with Corbett, Sharkey, Ruhlin, Maher and Choynski ( hall of fame fighters winning 3 of the 5 matches so he definitely would have been a fine addition to Jeffries resume.

1/ 2 duck for Jeffries in his championship tenure.

Jeffries was a fine champion as fought just about even one while he was lineal champion and active.

Now that that has been addressed anyone else? Go on....you can pick any champion for 1880 - 2023! I do have good information as you can see on them all.

- Dr. Z

Jeffries admit he could have never beat Johnson. I'm inclined to believe him.

He was in shape for that fight a long time. People were saying he looked great. He just couldn't beat Jack and it likely doesn't matter when it happened. That's likely why he ducked it. He knew.

Oh well