Did Monzon retire to avoid Hagler?

[Ivich]

None of my beeswax, but.....

The IBHOF has enshrined at least five murderers (Monzon, Blackburn, McCoy, Papke and King), because they weigh merit based on accomplishments in boxing. A rather honest approach I believe; as opposed to Baseball, where Pete Rose is barred and legendary SOB Ty Cobb is in.
Ivich has done the same as the Hall with the superb Monzon, we can surmise.

Now get ahold of yourself. You don't win every "Expert pissing contest", and so what?!

People like you and "Queensbury rules" have the goods to really contribute here, insted of provoking pointless arguments and silly statements. You can redeem your sigil.

It won't happen.Not only does he tell lies ,he will continually repeat them I could fill two pages of posts here with his prevaricating nonsense.
A few examples.
1.Johnson went to hospital after the Burns fight.He didn't,he went for a swim.

2.Burns had jaundice in that fight,He didn't.

3,Jeffries was level on points after 10 rounds with Johnson.He wasn't.

4,Johnson refused multiple offers of $30,000 and more to defend against Langford,Jeannette ,and McVey.He didn't

5,The Moran v Johnson fight was close.It wasn't.

6.The Jeffries v Corbett first fight was anybody's fight after 20 rds before Jeff landed the ko. It wasn't the referee stated Corbett had a comfortable lead.

7.Dempsey had a railroad spike in his glove when he fought Willard.He didn't
.
8,Louis had crooked officials in his pockets for his fights.He didn't.'

9,Johnson deliberately fouled Jeannette in one fight because he was losing,he didn't.
Johnson was knocking Jeannette about easily.when Jeannette went to the floor claiming a low blow .

10.Langford floored Johnson. He didn't, Johnson floored him 3 times for long 9 counts.

11,The Fitzsmmons v Ruhlin fight was filmed.It wasn't the camera failed to work and a re enactment was made later. Z used this as an excuse to not honour a bet he made with me btw.

12,Jack Johnson was stripped of his title by the French Boxing Federation because of the poor fight he made with Battling Jim Johnson. He wasn't ,the French stripped him before the fight and reinstated him 3 weeks later

13,GunBoat Smith tko'd Johnson in an exhibition bout.He didn't ,he put Johnson partially through the ropes in a sparring session according to Smith himself in a taped interview in1972.

Johnson sparred with a further 3 men, 2 rounds each after that spar .

14.Lennox Lewis used the laces and tape on his gloves to illegally cut Vitali Klitschko.He didn't the cuts were cause by right hand punches and Larry Merchant can be heard mentioning them as they happened.
15.After the fight Lewis was more marked up than Vitali.He wasnt he had a slight cut on the bridge of his nose.Vitali had 3 cuts on his face which required 64 stitches to close them I posted photos to prove this ,he never replied.
16.After fighting Ocasion, Lewis made a statemetn tha the would fight no more southpaws.He didn't Ocasio was not a southpaw.

17.Johnson avoided Luther McCarty.He didn't he cabled Tommy Burns McCarty's manager offering to defend his title against him in Canada.Burns turned him down.

That's just a few random samples of his BS.

Z is a man whose hatred of certain fighters,, Johnson in particular ,has clouded his judgement to such an extent his posts are positively unhinged!

The more emotionally worked up he gets the more he makes his spelling howlers.

He once, in a particularly vociferous argument ,referred to Sam Langford as Sang Froid!

In short , he is not dealing with a full deck!

On the plus side there seems to be some very decent posters engaging on here at the present,so we can afford to tolerate a troll like Queensbury and a nutcase like Z.

[billeau2]

It won't happen.Not only does he tell lies ,he will continually repeat them I could fill two pages of posts here with his prevaricating nonsense.
A few examples.
Johnson went to hospital after the Burns fight.He didn't,he went for a swim.

Burns had jaundice in that fight,He didn't.

Jeffries was level on points after 10 rounds with Johnson.He wasn't.

Johnson refused multiple offers of $30,000 and more to defend against Langford,Jeannette ,and McVey.He didn't

The Moran v Johnson fight was close.It wasn't.
The Jeffries v Corbett first fight was anybody's fight after 20 rds before Jeff landed the ko. It wasn't the referee stated Corbett had a comfortable lead.

Dempsey had a railroad spike in his glove when he fought Willard.He didn't
.
Louis had crooked officials in his pockets for his fights.He didn't.'
Johnson deliberately fouled Jeannette in one fight because he was losing,he didn't Johnson was knocking Jeannette about easily.when Jeannette went to the floor claiming a low blow .

Langford floored Johnson. He didn't, Johnson floored him 3 times for long 9 counts.

GunBoat Smith tko'd Johnson in an exhibition bout.He didn't ,he put Johnson partially through the ropes in a sparring session according to Smith himself in a taped interview in1972.

Johnson sparred with a further 3 men, 2 rounds each after that spar .

Johnson avoided Luther McCarty.He didn't he cabled Tommy Burns McCarty's manager offering to defend his title against him in Canada.Burns turned him down.

Z is a man whose hatred of certain fighters,, Johnson in particular has clouded his judgement to such an extent his posts are positively unhinged! The more emotionally worked up he gets the more he makes his spelling howlers.
He once, in a particularly vociferous argument ,referred to Sam Langford as Sang Froid!

In short , he is not dealing with a full deck!

On the plus side there seems to be some very decent posters engaging on here at the present,so we can afford to tolerate a troll like Queensbury and a nutcase like Z.

?? What?! A railroad spike?

Dempsey's manager says "Hey Dempsey how you gonna fit that spike in yer glove!!??" Dempsey says "easy gonna put it between the concrete Brick and the Rebar pipe!"

[billeau2]

None of my beeswax, but.....

The IBHOF has enshrined at least five murderers (Monzon, Blackburn, McCoy, Papke and King), because they weigh merit based on accomplishments in boxing. A rather honest approach I believe; as opposed to Baseball, where Pete Rose is barred and legendary SOB Ty Cobb is in.
Ivich has done the same as the Hall with the superb Monzon, we can surmise.

Now get ahold of yourself. You don't win every "Expert pissing contest", and so what?!

People like you and "Queensbury rules" have the goods to really contribute here, insted of provoking pointless arguments and silly statements. You can redeem your sigil.

As someone who has studied ethics, cross culturally included, as well as professional, at the University, graduate level, I cannot help noticing that the arguments put fourth by so called professors of ethics are often rather simplistic. I say this because it has always occurred to me that our own power, dominion over our decisions... what some would consider the bastion of Free Will, becomes quite corruptable when it over reaches. We seem, as a culture, alien to the notion of unintended consequence and the various effects of our acting on a little information, thus creating more ethical malaise than what was supposed to be addressed.

For example, any historian could easily deconstruct baseball from its inception to the early ninities (give or take), as a game held together with the baser instincts of human nature along with an affinity for gifted eye hand coordination. What is essential to the game was this wild impulse... and how it brought us such great players capable of criminal acts upon the real estate of a baseball diamond. Rose was perhaps one of the finest examples of such men... His way of operating was as integral to the sport as Billy martin punching out a marshmellow salesman in a bar...

Society does not even respect the sport... I mean making it antiseptic, pretending that the game was not infused with men like Rose was on the order of what they did to the landmark in hoboken New Jersey where the first game was allegedlly played... You might find a plaque showing that location, as last I checked it was part of a cereal factory.

Judging men like Rose has created situation where we look at a sport that has become antiseptic. Simply an athletic pursuit... a moneymaker where casuals can only afford the tickets. I will recant my point of view when sports authorities can show that Pete Rose acted differently than so many other characters in baseball with sociopatic and just plain crazy tendencies... Until then? Rose was a straw man constructed to make the morally righteous feel superior to those who understand the true nature of the beast.

[Slugfester]

But that is not the issue.
Dr Z says Monzon fought Fernandez in January 1966 lost by decision but floored Monzon .
Here is his statement below.

"Monzon was decked by jorge fernandez in jan 1966 in a bout for the south american middleweight title,"


Now did you see that fight on Fernandez' record?

Fernandez fought Monzon twice.
Fight no 1 . 3rd September 1966 Federacion Argentina de Box Middleweight title Monzon won a U Dec and the title.

Fight 2. 10th July 1967 South American Middleweight title.Monzon won a U Dec.
That is what it says in both their records on Box rec,that is also what it says on Cyber Zone and in the Ring Record book.
So in the absence of any proof to the contrary ,and in the face of him continually repeating this ,I am calling DR Z A LIAR.

In this thread someone named Richard M Murietta says Monzon was knocked down by Fernandez. Unless that is an alt for Z, that at least one more person who makes the same claim, giving Z a micro nudge. I looked a lot of places but only found this one reference.

"Jorge Fermandez was one of the last men to deck Carlos Monzon, that occurred on Sept 3 1966 for the Argentine and South American Middleweight Title won by Carlos by unanimous decision. The last opponent to deck Monzon was Rodrigo Valdes on July 30 1977 in Monte Carlo, Monaco, Monzon retained by unanimous decision, then retired"

https://www.*************.com/thread...rnandez.48667/ Post#4 on this page, World Boxing, Classic section

Well, they won't let me copy the link. Let me see if I can anyway. Nope.

[4truth]

I liked Hagler and Monzon was a poor excuse for a human, based on that I'm going with, yes, he ducked him.

[Dr. Z]

Monzon fought Frnandez twice, the first time was the year before, and both fights are listed in Monzon's record as well.

You are talking to an idiot and bad lair. Yes, those fights are on Monzon's and Fernadez records. The scoring in one of those matches was close. And I say again, Fernadez scored a knockdown against Monzon. Let the dolt think it did not happen.

[Dr. Z]

?? What?! A railroad spike?

Dempsey's manager says "Hey Dempsey how you gonna fit that spike in yer glove!!??" Dempsey says "easy gonna put it between the concrete Brick and the Rebar pipe!"

What? I never said I think Dempsey had a railroad in his glove. Ask him to produce my direct quote indcaitng I believe this. He is a loon. A crazy man. He is not all there.

[Dr. Z]

In this thread someone named Richard M Murietta says Monzon was knocked down by Fernandez. Unless that is an alt for Z, that at least one more person who makes the same claim, giving Z a micro nudge. I looked a lot of places but only found this one reference.

"Jorge Fermandez was one of the last men to deck Carlos Monzon, that occurred on Sept 3 1966 for the Argentine and South American Middleweight Title won by Carlos by unanimous decision. The last opponent to deck Monzon was Rodrigo Valdes on July 30 1977 in Monte Carlo, Monaco, Monzon retained by unanimous decision, then retired"

https://www.*************.com/thread...rnandez.48667/ Post#4 on this page, World Boxing, Classic section

Well, they won't let me copy the link. Let me see if I can anyway. Nope.

Someone feels very ****** right now. I tried to tell him!

[Ivich]

Ferndez did no retire for 2 years

In this thread someone named Richard M Murietta says Monzon was knocked down by Fernandez. Unless that is an alt for Z, that at least one more person who makes the same claim, giving Z a micro nudge. I looked a lot of places but only found this one reference.

"Jorge Fermandez was one of the last men to deck Carlos Monzon, that occurred on Sept 3 1966 for the Argentine and South American Middleweight Title won by Carlos by unanimous decision. The last opponent to deck Monzon was Rodrigo Valdes on July 30 1977 in Monte Carlo, Monaco, Monzon retained by unanimous decision, then retired"

https://www.*************.com/thread...rnandez.48667/ Post#4 on this page, World Boxing, Classic section

Well, they won't let me copy the link. Let me see if I can anyway. Nope.

Don't worry I am in touch with Richard I can find out if Fernandez floored Monzon.
ON SEPTEMBER 3RD 1966.

Its very possible, as I said on this thread Fernandez was a big puncher .117 WINS 89 KO'S
BUT. The bone of contention here is the statement DrZ made below..

"@ Ivich,

Monzon was decked by Jorge Fernandez in Jan 1966 in a bout for the South American Middleweight Title. I know this and I do not think such information can be found box rec and wiki.

Fernandez a former welter weight challenger ( Monzon loved to fight the lower weight guys ) who was only 5'5 1/2 " tall went the distance, flooring Monzon along the way. But he was too short and at tail end of his career. If he was in his prime, who knows?! It would be 2 years until Jorge Fernadez fought agin!"

1,THE NEVER FOUGHT ON THIS DATE.
2.FERNANDEZ DID NOT RETIRE FOR 2 YEARS AFTER JANUARY 1966
3.AFTER LOSING THE ARGENTINIAN MIDDLE WEIGHT TITLE TO MONZON ON SEPTEMBER 3RD 66.
FERNANDEZ NEXT FIGHT WAS AGAINST NORBERTO JUNCOS ON JAN 5TH 1967.

FERNANDEZ THEN FOUGHT TEDDY WRIGHT ON THE 24TH OF OF JULY 1967 W TKO 2RDS.

HE NEXT FOUGHT CHARLEY BAD NEWS AUSTIN ON THE 24TH OF MAY1967 THIS WAS A DRAW.

HE THEN REMATCHED MONZON FOR THE SOUTH AMERICAN MIDDLEWEIGHT TITLE LOSING A U DEC.
THEN FERNANDEZ RETIRED FOR 2 YEARS COMING BACK ON SEPTEMBER THE 9TH 1969 TO WIN THE SPANISH MIDDLEWEIGHT TITLE
4.THE FIRST FIGHT BETWEN MONZON AND FERNANDEZ WAS FOR THE ARGENTINIAN NATIONAL MIDDLEWEIGHT TITLE NOT THE SOUTH AMERICAN TITLE.

5.DR Z CLAIMS HE GOT THE INFORMATION FOR THIS FICTITIOUS JANUARY 1966 FIGHT BETWEEN MONZON AND FERNANDEZ FROM AN ARGENTINIAN NEWSPAPER THIS IMPLICITLY IMPLIES HE READS SPANISH.

6. HE STATES THE INFORMATION IS NOT AVAILABLE ANYWHERE ELSE ,NEITHER ON BOX REC OR WIKIPEDIA
I CAN SAY IT ALSO ISNT ON CYBERZONE BOXING, ON BOXING NEWS, NOR IS IT IN THE RING RECORD BOOK.WHAT MADE HIM GO LOOKING FOR IT?

7. MY EXPLANATION AND ITS A SIMPLE ONE IS AS FOLLOWS. WHEN CHECKING FERNANDEZ AND MONZONS RECORDS Z MISREAD THE DATES CONFUSING FERNANDEZ' FIRST MONZON FIGHT WITH THE JANUARY 67 JUNCOS FIGHT.
THAT WOULD BE FINE WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES.
WHAT ISNT FINE IS THAT WHEN YOU REALISE YOU HAVE MADE THAT MISTAKE YOU ARE UNABLE TO ADMIT IT!
AND NOT ONLY CONTINUE TO SAY IT HAPPENED BUT COMPOUND IT BY SAYING YOU RECEIVED THE INFORMATION VIA AN ARGENTINIAN NEWSPAPER.WHOM YOU DO NOT NAME NOR DO YOU PRODUCE A LINK TO IT.

IN THIS WAY A MISTAKE BECOMES A DELIBERATE LIE.
AND IN MY OPINION THAT IS WHAT HAS HAPPENED HERE. MY APOLOGIES FOR THE CAPS BUT I WANTED TO MAKE THE FACTS AS CLEAR AS POSSIBLE.

[Dr. Z]

Ferndez did no retire for 2 years
Don't worry I am in touch with Richard I can find out if Fernandez floored Monzon.
ON SEPTEMBER 3RD 1966.

Its very possible, as I said on this thread Fernandez was a big puncher .117 WINS 89 KO'S
BUT. The bone of contention here is the statement DrZ made below..

"@ Ivich,

Monzon was decked by Jorge Fernandez in Jan 1966 in a bout for the South American Middleweight Title. I know this and I do not think such information can be found box rec and wiki.

Fernandez a former welter weight challenger ( Monzon loved to fight the lower weight guys ) who was only 5'5 1/2 " tall went the distance, flooring Monzon along the way. But he was too short and at tail end of his career. If he was in his prime, who knows?! It would be 2 years until Jorge Fernadez fought agin!"

1,THE NEVER FOUGHT ON THIS DATE.
2.FERNANDEZ DID NOT RETIRE FOR 2 YEARS AFTER JANUARY 1966
3.AFTER LOSING THE ARGENTINIAN MIDDLE WEIGHT TITLE TO MONZON ON SEPTEMBER 3RD 66.
FERNANDEZ NEXT FIGHT WAS AGAINST NORBERTO JUNCOS ON JAN 5TH 1967.

FERNANDEZ THEN FOUGHT TEDDY WRIGHT ON THE 24TH OF OF JULY 1967 W TKO 2RDS.

HE NEXT FOUGHT CHARLEY BAD NEWS AUSTIN ON THE 24TH OF MAY1967

HE THEN REMATCHED MONZON FOR THE SOUTH AMERICAN MIDDLEWEIGHT TITLE LOSING A U DEC.
THEN FERNANDEZ RETIRED FOR 2 YEARS COMING BACK ON SEPTEMBER THE 9TH 1969 TO WIN THE SPANISH MIDDLEWEIGHT TITLE
4.THE FIRST FIGHT BETWEN MONZON AND FERNANDEZ WAS FOR THE ARGENTINIAN NATIONAL MIDDLEWEIGHT TITLE NOT THE SOUTH AMERICAN TITLE.

5.DR Z CLAIMS HE GOT THE INFORMATION FOR THIS FICTITIOUS JANUARY 1966 FIGHT BETWEEN MONZON AND FERNANDEZ FROM AN ARGENTINIAN NEWSPAPER THIS IMPLICITLY IMPLIES HE READS SPANISH.

6. HE STATES THE INFORMATION IS NOT AVAILABLE ANYWHERE ELSE ,NEITHER ON BOX REC OR WIKIPEDIA
I CAN SAY IT ALSO ISNT ON CYBERZONE BOXING, ON BOXING NEWS, NOR IS IT IN THE RING RECORD BOOK.

7. MY EXPLANATION AND ITS A SIMPLE ONE FOR THIS IS AS FOLLOWS. WHEN CHECKING FERNANDEZ AND MONZONS RECORDS Z MISREAD THE DATES CONFUSING FERNADEZ' FIRST MONZON FIGHT WITH THE JANUARY 67 JUNCOS FIGHT.
THAT WOULD BE FINE WE ALL MADE MISTAKES.WHAT ISNT FINE IS WHEN YOU REALISE YOU HAVE MADE THAT MISTAKE YOU ARE UNABLE TO ADMIT IT! AND NOT ONLY CONTINUE TO SAY IT HAPPENED BUT COMPOUND IT BY SAYING YOU RECEIVED THE INFORMATION VIA AN ARGENTINIAN NEWSPAPER.WHOM YOU DO NOT NAME AND NEITHER DO YOU PRODUCE A LINK TO IT.

IN THIS WAY A MISTAKE BECOMES A DELIBERATE LIE.
AND IN MY OPINION THAT IS WHAT HAS HAPPENED HERE. MY APOLOGIES FOR THE CAPS BUT I WANTED TO MAKE THE FACTS AS CLEAR AS POSSIBLE.

So you trust the ESB forum, but Not box rec, or wiki??

You have been caught LYING. Lairs tend to get caught eventually. Richard or whomever he is will confirm the truth. Be sure to post your Mea Culpa here, it will redeem you in this case.....sightly.

You lie about things. I never said Dempsey had a rail road spike, I said others accuse him of having metal slipped to him in the ring. Willard found a metal bolt in the ring after the fight and kept is for the rest of his life. Hmmmm.... and Dempsey bolted like a their in the night out it the ring! Hmmm.... Watch this space. Now I hope that is clear to the readers.

Mixing some off tangent facts that have nothing to do with what was said won't save you.