What's the real story behind Floyd Patterson and his subjugation to Sonny Liston

[max baer]

- - Also rate Foreman, Langford, Monzon, John L, Sal Sanchez, both Dempseys, AJ, Usyk, Aaron Pryor, Arguello, and really, too many others, dozens upon dozens.

Thats why I’m here and not on Sony granny knifing circle.

I know I am only joking. If I was commissioned to write a biography of a famous boxer I would certainly have you as one of my junior research work experience students.

[max baer]

queensbury you are the wisest most informed member along with wille pep, willow the wisp and billeau2

[billeau2]

This is what I've read:.

Cus felt Sonny Liston was an impossible stylistic match-up for Patterson and Patterson himself did not believe that he would win, even buying things in preparation for losing ( to cover his face).

Now the question is what about Listons style was deemed impossible by Cus? Liston couldn't hurt Eddie Machen (who Ingemar Johansson Koed inside 1 round).

If you moved, Sonny couldn't get to you. He never beat anyone who moved around the ring, unless they ran into him. Sonny had poor athleticism in his right hand

So basically, if you brawled, Sonny Liston shined. Like he did against glass jaw Cleveland Williams . But if he had to get to you, he was NOT a great fighter...he could not get set and land ..anything... His jab could land but that was all.. and against Ali he couldn't even land that consistently.


So anyway, back to Patterson. Why didn't he believe he could win vs Liston?

You re asking a question based on false assumptions that you seem to think are true. Every statement you claim about Liston is debatabel at best and outright false at worse.

[billeau2]

There is a school of thought that says Liston, a formidable technical fighter, who moved with deliberation and might be the best finisher ever in the division, was somehow totally ignorant about cutting the ring off... While it is true Liston did not cut the ring off, he used another approach... Shooting in on the straightest line, to achieve a similar technical result. Watch a fighter like Pacman, or even Tyson, to see how blitzing the main fighting line has a similar effect as cutting the ring down. It was quite obviously a preference... Otherwise Liston would not have been such a great finisher...

it would be like saying Gordon is a great chef but cannot cook... And YES there are great chefs that cannot cook (I worked for one lol). But the statement makes no sense because Gordon cooks very well.

[max baer]

You know i was thinking about this and i come at it from another angle.
Listion I agree wasn't gifted as a boxer but he would intimidate the other guy. Liston may have been much older then he claimed as there are no sure records to see.
He relied on fighting toe to toe and used his strength to beat down everyone. If he couldn't do that he had little else. I read some years ago that ali's trainer said to him at weigh in "you are taller then this guy so when you come together stand upright and look down on him. it worked ali felt emboldened.
Another thing I read was that during the marciano years men stood and brawled and the boxing press liked that but they got angry at ali saying "clay dances around the ring he doesn't stand and fight like a man"
So I think that liston used intimidation and had not much else. Floyd was not able to do what ali done because he didn' have the reflex speed or the skill.

[max baer]

There is a school of thought that says Liston, a formidable technical fighter, who moved with deliberation and might be the best finisher ever in the division, was somehow totally ignorant about cutting the ring off... While it is true Liston did not cut the ring off, he used another approach... Shooting in on the straightest line, to achieve a similar technical result. Watch a fighter like Pacman, or even Tyson, to see how blitzing the main fighting line has a similar effect as cutting the ring down. It was quite obviously a preference... Otherwise Liston would not have been such a great finisher...

it would be like saying Gordon is a great chef but cannot cook... And YES there are great chefs that cannot cook (I worked for one lol). But the statement makes no sense because Gordon cooks very well.

after reading this i think i need to learn more about liston as i know very little all of it in books about ali.

[_Rexy_]

You're saying he hit harder with his hook than Frazier? "his arms were more buff"? What does that mean?

Patterson won the title weighing 182 1/2lbs Frazier was 205lbs Frazier was considerably bigger physically than Patterson.

Again, why are you quoting me? I never said any of that.

[billeau2]

Ivitch:

Ivitch the post you initially responded to was by the "OP." Which is why Rexy was asking about the quote. Hope this clears this up.

[billeau2]

after reading this i think i need to learn more about liston as i know very little all of it in books about ali.

A lot of history on Liston, lately much sympathy... A welcome development to some of us. Technical analysis... still a ways to go, some guys on Youtube have done some stuff. Liston was imo one of the very best. But a lot to go over... Sonny did so many things it takes a bit to look at him.

[Ivich]

You know i was thinking about this and i come at it from another angle.
Listion I agree wasn't gifted as a boxer but he would intimidate the other guy. Liston may have been much older then he claimed as there are no sure records to see.
He relied on fighting toe to toe and used his strength to beat down everyone. If he couldn't do that he had little else. I read some years ago that ali's trainer said to him at weigh in "you are taller then this guy so when you come together stand upright and look down on him. it worked ali felt emboldened.
Another thing I read was that during the marciano years men stood and brawled and the boxing press liked that but they got angry at ali saying "clay dances around the ring he doesn't stand and fight like a man"
So I think that liston used intimidation and had not much else. Floyd was not able to do what ali done because he didn' have the reflex speed or the skill.

Liston could box.