The Toney Jirov fight... lets remember these great fights

[JAB5239]

They had some monster exchanges! I loved how Jirov trained himself to keep coming and how Toney could look in the eye of the storm and keep timing shots. I loved this fight.

I sat two rows back from the ring for this fight at the Fox theater in Foxwoods casino. At the time and up until the knockdown I thought Jirov was winning. Watching it later Toney looked much more in control to me and picked Vasily apart. Great fight to watch, and maybe the best fight I've ever witnessed live.

[IronDanHamza]

Exactly how do steriods help boxing? Boxing skill sets are hard to correlate with success based on muscle mass. And as far as cardio, again the data is mixed. We do know that they help athletes heal, make athletes stronger. But fighters depend on fine motor skills, timing, and sometimes muscle mass is a detriment. My point is, if we look at blood doping? we know it increases oxygen in the blood, ok... More oxygen means more cardio.

The only thing we know about steriods and how they make a boxer better would be in their healing effect. If an older fighter can heal better... which I don't think is so bad actually.

PED’s aren’t just used for muscle mass, in sports they are often used for sport specific increase in performance and PED’s increase athletic performance drastically.

Depending on the PED, they drastically increase performance in;

Strength
Explosiveness
Recovery
Cardio
Weight loss/fat loss

All of which are a massive advantage in a sport such as boxing.

To suggest that there’s no conclusive proof that steroids (PED’s) help performance as a whole is just an outrageous stance to take and it’s objectively false. The evidence could not possibly be more conclusive.

I have been using PED’s for decades, and still do to this day. I know what I’m talking about when it comes to this topic and I can tell you categorically that you’re way off on your observation.

[Main Source]

Ah, yes. One of my all time favourite fights with one of my favourite fighters.

I still go back to watching this fight a couple of times per year. And I love how energetic the great Emanuel Steward was in the final rounds.

[QueensburyRules]

- - Problem with PED abusers is they tend to think most are like them.

Never used PEDs and have a lifetime as a high level testa male also producing high endorphins after workouts.

Don’t get any better, so I ain’t the one poisoning our precious waterways, so I’ll always be Holier than Hambone Dan.

[Tatabanya]

I have been using PED’s for decades, and still do to this day. I know what I’m talking about when it comes to this topic

If I'm allowed to ask, are you lifting weights, or...? Just curious.

[billeau2]

PED’s aren’t just used for muscle mass, in sports they are often used for sport specific increase in performance and PED’s increase athletic performance drastically.

Depending on the PED, they drastically increase performance in;

Strength
Explosiveness
Recovery
Cardio
Weight loss/fat loss

All of which are a massive advantage in a sport such as boxing.

To suggest that there’s no conclusive proof that steroids (PED’s) help performance as a whole is just an outrageous stance to take and it’s objectively false. The evidence could not possibly be more conclusive.

I have been using PED’s for decades, and still do to this day. I know what I’m talking about when it comes to this topic and I can tell you categorically that you’re way off on your observation.

I said "specific to boxing." I mean a cause and effect relationship between the attributes of boxing that demonstrate a direct relationship where peds = better boxer, like for example in baseball with barry bonds where you can show before and after.

I mean for example, what proof do we have that Holyfield was better for the juicing? Ot Toney? How can we measure such a thing? As compared with healing from an injury (general). I am talking as a proof that steriods make a fighter better by bulking... because its hard to imagine that the mechanism of steriods creates any more speed, timing, or even endurance than a well trained boxer, in shape doing cardio properly, and who may not even want muscle mass.

[billeau2]

PED’s aren’t just used for muscle mass, in sports they are often used for sport specific increase in performance and PED’s increase athletic performance drastically.

Depending on the PED, they drastically increase performance in;

Strength
Explosiveness
Recovery
Cardio
Weight loss/fat loss

All of which are a massive advantage in a sport such as boxing.

To suggest that there’s no conclusive proof that steroids (PED’s) help performance as a whole is just an outrageous stance to take and it’s objectively false. The evidence could not possibly be more conclusive.

I have been using PED’s for decades, and still do to this day. I know what I’m talking about when it comes to this topic and I can tell you categorically that you’re way off on your observation.

I am not saying that peds, with their health risks aside, may not increase these categories. There is a general level of changes that correlate, not really my point. Also, as an aside, one has to consider how much steriods help the healing process of an older athlete, which I would argue could potentially be viewed as a positive. I mean... Do we want an old injured fighter, NOT to recover from an injury? Even when a doctor might normally prescribe a steroid for a person who needed it?

My point is; A fighter, trained at the top of his game, has an ambivalent relationship to muscle mass and any weight gain... Muscle weighs more than fat. The other attributes a fighter usually has with proper training, because the main benefit of steriods is muscle mass/fat loss. Your cardio improves because your stronger essentially. The weight gain may ofset the advantages for a fighter...

Hypothetical question: How would a great fighter like Ezzard Charles, Robinson, benefit from steriods? How would an average fighter in great shape benefit? Rhetorical question.

[IronDanHamza]

I said "specific to boxing." I mean a cause and effect relationship between the attributes of boxing that demonstrate a direct relationship where peds = better boxer, like for example in baseball with barry bonds where you can show before and after.

I mean for example, what proof do we have that Holyfield was better for the juicing? Ot Toney? How can we measure such a thing? As compared with healing from an injury (general). I am talking as a proof that steriods make a fighter better by bulking... because its hard to imagine that the mechanism of steriods creates any more speed, timing, or even endurance than a well trained boxer, in shape doing cardio properly, and who may not even want muscle mass.

There would a plethora of examples there.

Barry Bonds performance improved drastically on PED’s because that’s what PED’s do, they enhance your athletic performance.

James Toney popped for Winstrol which is typically used as a cutting agent. Meaning he likely was using it as a weight cutting agent whilst also maintaining or even increasing his athletic performance whilst doing so. It also aids in recovery, meaning you can train at a more intense rate with substantially less recovery time. That is a massive advantage for any athlete especially in the sport such as boxing. This isn’t even arguable.

You’ve mentioned bulking there but boxers aren’t going to use PED’s for that reason. A boxer is going to use PED’s to increase their performance. PED’s and increasing muscle size don’t run parallel which each other. A boxer’s use of PED’s and a bodybuilders use of PED’s for example are going to be night and day different, including the style of training. Using PED’s doesn’t automatically mean you are going to bulk up your muscles.

You’ve said there that “it hard to imagine the mechanism of steroids creating more speed and endurance”. That is not hard to imagine at all, it’s quite the opposite actually.

[IronDanHamza]

I am not saying that peds, with their health risks aside, may not increase these categories. There is a general level of changes that correlate, not really my point. Also, as an aside, one has to consider how much steriods help the healing process of an older athlete, which I would argue could potentially be viewed as a positive. I mean... Do we want an old injured fighter, NOT to recover from an injury? Even when a doctor might normally prescribe a steroid for a person who needed it?

My point is; A fighter, trained at the top of his game, has an ambivalent relationship to muscle mass and any weight gain... Muscle weighs more than fat. The other attributes a fighter usually has with proper training, because the main benefit of steriods is muscle mass/fat loss. Your cardio improves because your stronger essentially. The weight gain may ofset the advantages for a fighter...

Hypothetical question: How would a great fighter like Ezzard Charles, Robinson, benefit from steriods? How would an average fighter in great shape benefit? Rhetorical question.

Of course it is positive from an athletic performance standpoint. That’s the whole point. You are taking a compound that is giving you unnatural levels of performance, meaning in regards to recovery you recover drastically quicker than you would without them. Hence why it’s banned.

The main benefit of steroids is not muscle mass. You are equating “steroids” to Mr Olympia and thinking that’s how it works, it’s not.

There are numerous different compounds that serve different purposes. Someone like Mo Farah for example who has been suspected of being on PED’s would not be gaining substantial muscle mass at all, if any. But he is drastically improving his a athletic capabilities.

Lance Armstrong another example, of a career PED user who’s not gaining substantial muscle mass.

I don’t mean to come off as rude at all here, but you aren’t educated on this topic. If you want to learn about it we can talk as I do throughly enjoy this topic as someone who has been involved with PED’s for a long time, but in regards to what you’ve said here you are way way way off.

[Rockin']

Selldom do we get objective announcing lol. I think it is easier to announce if you have a bias lol.

The Ham(za) should have been a commentator..................Rockin'