Gerb vs Louis according to those who saw the both

[IronDanHamza]

Toney beating Ruiz.

Toney didn’t beat Ruiz.

And Toney was far from a Middleweight then.

[JAB5239]

Toney didn’t beat Ruiz.

And Toney was far from a Middleweight then.

He was a very fat middleweight. Kind of brings me to my point.....does anyone think in these mythical fantasy fights that Greb is coming in at 160?

[Willie Pep 229]

Yes, I do!

Greb's a fool if he comes in above 166. Bloating (bulking up) never works.

You either get naturally larger like M. Spinks; or you PED yourself up like Holyfield.

Since neither apply to Greb his best weight IMO is 163 - 166.

When Greb beat Tunney (I) (1922) he came in at 162 1/2 against Tunney's 174 1/2.

But then in December 1923, just seven days after weighting in at 162 (on12/03,) for Brian Downey, Greb foolishly bloated up to 172 (on 12/10,) for Tunney) and all that did was get him another loss to a 175 lb Tunney.

I don't know if he deliberately added (bloated) 10 pounds in just seven days, or just showed up for the the fight lazy. But we do know, the one time he broke the 170 mark he lost.

When he fought Tunney again in September 1924 (almost a year later) Greb was smartly back down to 166 when he fought Tunney to a ten round draw.

So I say yes, I expect Greb to be closer to 160 than 175. If he comes in over 170 bet against him.

[IronDanHamza]

He was a very fat middleweight. Kind of brings me to my point.....does anyone think in these mythical fantasy fights that Greb is coming in at 160?

But Toney didn’t beat Ruiz so it’s irrelevant.

How was he a fat Middleweight when the excuse for all of his terrible performances are he was drained?

How can he be a fat middleweight when he was apparently “drained” at 175 when Drake Thadzi beat him with ease?

Can’t have it both ways he’s either drained at those weights or he’s not.

[JAB5239]

But Toney didn’t beat Ruiz so it’s irrelevant.

How was he a fat Middleweight when the excuse for all of his terrible performances are he was drained?

How can he be a fat middleweight when he was apparently “drained” at 175 when Drake Thadzi beat him with ease?

Can’t have it both ways he’s either drained at those weights or he’s not.

He actually beat Ruiz quite easily. I'm not getting into this argument with you, only stating Toney was a former middleweight who beat a heavyweight. That he tested positive later and it was turned into a NC is another debate. You guy are making these fantasy matches into something real and getting all bent out of shape about it.

[IronDanHamza]

He actually beat Ruiz quite easily. I'm not getting into this argument with you, only stating Toney was a former middleweight who beat a heavyweight. That he tested positive later and it was turned into a NC is another debate. You guy are making these fantasy matches into something real and getting all bent out of shape about it.

Except he didn’t beat Ruiz and doesn’t have a win over Ruiz. We can’t say he beat Ruiz because he literally does not have a win over Ruiz. That’s just a fact.

And Toney wasn’t a Middleweight then that’s another fact. And the point I’m making is you can’t use his weight as an excuse for every single time he lost of looked terrible and then also say “he was a middleweight fighting at Heavyweight”

It’s either one or the other he’s massively oversized for those lighter weight classes or he’s not.

[JAB5239]

Except he didn’t beat Ruiz and doesn’t have a win over Ruiz. We can’t say he beat Ruiz because he literally does not have a win over Ruiz. That’s just a fact.

And Toney wasn’t a Middleweight then that’s another fact. And the point I’m making is you can’t use his weight as an excuse for every single time he lost of looked terrible and then also say “he was a middleweight fighting at Heavyweight”

It’s either one or the other he’s massively oversized for those lighter weight classes or he’s not.

Lmao......I'm not saying anything about "every single time". You don't want to say he won, fine. Toney easily outfought Ruiz? Are we going to argue about that now? This isn't about Toney, it was an example of a former middleweight beating up a legit heavyweight. And when I say former, that is the point. Does anyone in their right mind think Greb is fighting any heavyweight (again, nothing to do with who may win or lose) weighing 160? How many times has that ever happened? And if the fight is at heavyweight why would a fighter come in that low? Everyone keeps saying no middleweight weight could beat an alltime great. My position is Greb fought at 175 against defeating a laundry list of great fighters. Does that make him a shoe in to beat great heavyweights? Of course not. But other fighter have come from 175 and done it.

[IronDanHamza]

Lmao......I'm not saying anything about "every single time". You don't want to say he won, fine. Toney easily outfought Ruiz? Are we going to argue about that now? This isn't about Toney, it was an example of a former middleweight beating up a legit heavyweight. And when I say former, that is the point. Does anyone in their right mind think Greb is fighting any heavyweight (again, nothing to do with who may win or lose) weighing 160? How many times has that ever happened? And if the fight is at heavyweight why would a fighter come in that low? Everyone keeps saying no middleweight weight could beat an alltime great. My position is Greb fought at 175 against defeating a laundry list of great fighters. Does that make him a shoe in to beat great heavyweights? Of course not. But other fighter have come from 175 and done it.

There is no argument. You said he beat Ruiz when the the fact of the matter is he didn’t and doesn’t have a win over Ruiz. That isn’t a debatable topic.

I can’t thing of a single example off the top of my head of a Middleweight beating an ATG Heavyweight, no.

But it’s irrelevant anyway because Toney wasn’t a Middleweight then.

Greb’s highest weight was what? In the low 170’s? Toney won a title at Crusierweight and then had a pitiful run at Heavyweight where he didn’t win a paper belt in the 3/4 belt era so I don’t see how that example could possibly support your argument.

There is not a man that’s ever lived that has never even weighed 175 lbs in their career that could beat an ATG heavyweight in their career.

Well, perhaps the 190 era, the smaller guys but none of the guys who weighed 210+

[JAB5239]

There is no argument. You said he beat Ruiz when the the fact of the matter is he didn’t and doesn’t have a win over Ruiz. That isn’t a debatable topic.

I can’t thing of a single example off the top of my head of a Middleweight beating an ATG Heavyweight, no.

But it’s irrelevant anyway because Toney wasn’t a Middleweight then.

Greb’s highest weight was what? In the low 170’s? Toney won a title at Crusierweight and then had a pitiful run at Heavyweight where he didn’t win a paper belt in the 3/4 belt era so I don’t see how that example could possibly support your argument.

There is not a man that’s ever lived that has never even weighed 175 lbs in their career that could beat an ATG heavyweight in their career.

Well, perhaps the 190 era, the smaller guys but none of the guys who weighed 210+

Gene Tunnney would beg to differ. So would Micheal Spinks. You're still missing the point. Greb or anyone else fighting at Heavyweight wouldn't come in at their most well known weight.

[IronDanHamza]

Gene Tunnney would beg to differ. So would Micheal Spinks. You're still missing the point. Greb or anyone else fighting at Heavyweight wouldn't come in at their most well known weight.

Right yeah that’s fair but neither of those guys were really Middleweights. Greb was essentially a career Middleweight.

I’m not missing the point. Toney wasn’t a Middleweight then. He was at worst a Crusierweight.

Greb was barely even a Light Heavyweight. He was that great to do very well at LHW against great LHW fighters but we have nothing to suggest he could do it at HW.

What weight do you think he comes in? His heaviest weight was in the low 70’s if I’m recalling correctly. If not it wasn’t much higher.