Gerb vs Louis according to those who saw the both

[JAB5239]

Right yeah that’s fair but neither of those guys were really Middleweights. Greb was essentially a career Middleweight.

I’m not missing the point. Toney wasn’t a Middleweight then. He was at worst a Crusierweight.

Greb was barely even a Light Heavyweight. He was that great to do very well at LHW against great LHW fighters but we have nothing to suggest he could do it at HW.

What weight do you think he comes in? His heaviest weight was in the low 70’s if I’m recalling correctly. If not it wasn’t much higher.

I'm not sure what weight he comes in at in a fantasy fight. Is he fighting in his era, the 50,s and 60's? Today? I think that is all relevant in a discussion like this. I do think he can beat some very good heavyweights and possibly beat some great ones. I can't prove it, but I can't prove he would lose either. What I'm 99% certain about is he wouldn't be fighting at the middleweight limit.

[IronDanHamza]

I'm not sure what weight he comes in at in a fantasy fight. Is he fighting in his era, the 50,s and 60's? Today? I think that is all relevant in a discussion like this. I do think he can beat some very good heavyweights and possibly beat some great ones. I can't prove it, but I can't prove he would lose either. What I'm 99% certain about is he wouldn't be fighting at the middleweight limit.

Well all we can go off is his heaviest weight, isn’t it? Which was what? 173 or something like that.

How could we possibly put him into discussions at Heavyweight when that’s his highest ring weight? It doesn’t make any sense.

[JAB5239]

Well all we can go off is his heaviest weight, isn’t it? Which was what? 173 or something like that.

How could we possibly put him into discussions at Heavyweight when that’s his highest ring weight? It doesn’t make any sense.

That's a fair point. But didn't Billy Conn only weigh 174 for Louis and ALMOST pull off the upset? It's all unprovable no matter what any of us think. But it's fun to speculate.

[IronDanHamza]

That's a fair point. But didn't Billy Conn only weigh 174 for Louis and ALMOST pull off the upset? It's all unprovable no matter what any of us think. But it's fun to speculate.

Almost But didn’t.

Conn easier to judge because we can break down how he fights unlike Greb.

[billeau2]

So you don't think, his praise of Greb smells of hyperbole?

How about his comments on Dempsey's greatness... is that something you think deserves to be taken seriously?

The Mike Casey Archive | The Cyber Boxing Zone

One way to deal with this human tendency to see things with halycion vision days-gone-by, is to look collectively at some of the opinions. Dempsey and Marciano were regarded by many trainers to be a breed in themselves. Louis and Ali came up the flank of punditry opinion as the years past. In the eighties there were trainers who still gave accolodes to Johnson and jeffries, with a suprising appearance (regularly) of Fitzzimons.

I believe these collective opinions are of value, I do not see them as absolute. I trust them more when more than a few greats opine the same. For example, I would never, on my own free will to study boxing, assume Marciano was great. But, there are boxing men who say it is so. When you analyze marciano what you begin to see, is that, of the pressure guys, he was the most unrelenting. He was not even the greatest finisher, but, he could apply unrelenting pressure for round after round, in a manner that not even Frazier, or the great punchers (dempsey, Liston, Louis, etc) could do so. He won by making the other guy make mistakes...

Historically I look at Marciano as a bit of a Musashi (the great Japanese swordsman) archetype: Most people do not know that Musashi was not truly a great swordsman... He just knew how to kill people better and to make great swordsman do ****** things. One of his most famous duels was with Prince Koto, a renowned swordsman, a lot better trained than Musashi... Knowing this Musashi came to the contest late, in a boat. He taunted Koto from the boat until Koto came charging into the water... big mistake. With no mobility, Musashi put his sword down for a fine weapon of length... a Bo (stick) or, in this case, the Boat ore. I don't need to describe what he did to Koto's skull, but it was fatal. So... swordsman? Koto was exceptionally trained and might have been able to beat Musashi, but as someone focused on strategy and the means to kill by all means...Musashi won. marciano beat fighters like Walcot and Moore using his unrelenting pressure and ability to persevere, while never having the technical chops of either man.

[billeau2]

That's a fair point. But didn't Billy Conn only weigh 174 for Louis and ALMOST pull off the upset? It's all unprovable no matter what any of us think. But it's fun to speculate.

That Conn fight is very interesting. There are times when Louis was less than stellar. I tend to look at the Conn fight as possibly one of these times, or, an example of how a great puncher, given 15 rounds, wins a fight with a great boxer. Louis had to be patient, and sure... he drew Conn into a fire fight, but his punching power prevailed, he caught his man with time to spare.

[billeau2]

He actually beat Ruiz quite easily. I'm not getting into this argument with you, only stating Toney was a former middleweight who beat a heavyweight. That he tested positive later and it was turned into a NC is another debate. You guy are making these fantasy matches into something real and getting all bent out of shape about it.

Iron Dan is a fool when it comes to Toney... Period. He just repeats and repeats, and never listens. I find it amusing.

[IronDanHamza]

Iron Dan is a fool when it comes to Toney... Period. He just repeats and repeats, and never listens. I find it amusing.

You find facts amusing, nice one.

Toney doesn't have a win over Ruiz, that's an objective fact.

Facts don't care about your feelings I'm afraid.

[ShoulderRoll]

Lmao......I'm not saying anything about "every single time". You don't want to say he won, fine. Toney easily outfought Ruiz? Are we going to argue about that now? This isn't about Toney, it was an example of a former middleweight beating up a legit heavyweight. And when I say former, that is the point. Does anyone in their right mind think Greb is fighting any heavyweight (again, nothing to do with who may win or lose) weighing 160? How many times has that ever happened? And if the fight is at heavyweight why would a fighter come in that low? Everyone keeps saying no middleweight weight could beat an alltime great. My position is Greb fought at 175 against defeating a laundry list of great fighters. Does that make him a shoe in to beat great heavyweights? Of course not. But other fighter have come from 175 and done it.

Toney definitely outfought Ruiz in the ring and was given a unanimous decision over him that night.

But obviously the performance was tainted by him testing positive for nandrolone.

[IronDanHamza]

Toney definitely outfought Ruiz in the ring and was given a unanimous decision over him that night.

But obviously the performance was tainted by him testing positive for nandrolone.

Speaking of that, that means he's not an ATG to you, doesn't it?