Joe Jennette vs. Jack Johnson 1913

[Ivich]

B()lls&it., There were numerous offers by known promoters of 50,000, and an even one for a $100,000. Johnson always came up with and excuse not to fight Langford and Jeannette. The quotes and examples are numerous. Not all of Johnson defense were 30,000.

How much did he make vs Frank Moran, Battling Jim Johnson Jack O'Brien, and only Ross, and Al Kaufman? List the purse amounts if you can. I'm sure you won't. Come on do it Tony. You are dishonest man. Johnson could have fought in the UK, France, or Australia. Keep hiding behind a USA offers and Johnson influence over them NYAC.

Post these verified offers or shut the **** up.

[Ivich]

And I have show you numerous other offers in non USA venues that Johnson was not serious about / did not sign! You are backtracking and fleeing the realty of what Johnson accepted. Why?? Afraid of saying he was offered more for Langford and Jeannette but fought far lesser talent for less? He was chined by a super middle weight, according to many lost to another in a fight ruled by a new draw box rec, and barely escaped from KO vs a journeyman in a title defense. Oh he fouled in other title defenses too to mentioned. This happened.

It looks like you want me to do all the work and reject the facts that I find.

You've shown **** all despite repeated requests.

[Ivich]

So how about a serious timeline?

Many on here have adamant opinions about the matter, both ways. But no one is producing a coherent narative of the events.

Just piecemeal evidence with no back story or outcomes explained.

No one has put together a serious argument or has offered a complete narative.

I started it off by identifying why the post-Burns, Langford-London fight was understandably called off because of purse issues. But there my knowledge ends.

All I read on here are the same repeated posts, generalizations supported by piecemeal evidence.

If you claim it true either way produce a timeline.

How about you just buy the books as we have done,then you will be up to speed on things won't you ?

[Ivich]

Likely as Jeannette is way better than Jim battling Johnson or Frank Moran. By 1912 I think Johnson had peaked and was plenty suspect in 1909.

Battling Jim beat Jeannette twice and drew with him on another occasion.

[travestyny]

I do!

You know the answer, you sited in your previous posts? These were money grab fights. Jeffries always claimed he wouldn't cross the color line if the title was at stake.

A McVea fight would have been 20 rounds and everyone would have viewed it as a title fight.

I am not defending Jeffries behavior only stating that you know the Griffin fight and the McVea fight were very different fights.

In short he was willing to fight the "darkie" so long as the title wasn't on the line.

BTW What newspapers are they? Why do you always post without citations?

Do you have any info that shows that the Moran fight was postponed because of JJ's injury?

Boxrec calls the Johnson-Johnson fight a title fight. I am wondering if you are right and they are wrong.

Do you have any sources that promote the Johnson fight as a title fight?

The chosen venues suggest you might be correct -->

The Élysée Montmartre (Johndon fight) was a smaller venue seating around 1,300. Not somewhere you hold a title fight.

I can't find a capacity figure for the
Velodrome d'Hiver, (Moran fight) but it looks to be a larger venue. Originally built for bicycle racing and used for Olympic events.

So you seem correct when you say they were approaching the two fights with different anticipations.

But Boxrec ????

Dude, I posted the info about Johnson's injury postponing the fight about twice now. All you have to do is read.

If you don't like that I don't give you the name of every newspaper article, then don't like it? If you think I am somehow making these newspapers myself, then you are a madman. The reason I don't often include the newspaper name and date is because these sport sections are huge with tons of articles so I have to pluck out just the exact article on the topic, and so I don't often have the paper name and date in range to capture it and I don't always remember to jot it down.

And yes, you are making my point. They weren't the same fight and some of them were money grabs. For the real fight Jeffries wouldn't put up that title because he was afraid he would lose, in my opinion. Same reason most of these guys were afraid to fight Black fighters.


I've never made a mention of which were and which weren't title fights, only to mention the Jeannette fight was definitely to be for the title.



Go back and read the article I posted that states clearly Johnson had to postpone the Moran fight due to injury. IT'S RIGHT IN THIS THREAD. ON PAGE 5 for me. If you have some people on ignore I guess it could be on a different page for you, but it is around there. You can't miss it since unfortunately the newspaper clippings often post very big.

[Dr. Z]

Name a promoter who offered Johnson $30,000 to defend against any of the black trio that Johnson refused to sign contracts with?

I must have asked you this question about 50 times now ,on Classic from which you are permanently banned for your phobic hatred of Johnson ,and the lies you have told promoting that hatred,and a half a dozen times on this forum. You won't answer because you can't.
The fight with Langford was offered in1908 before Johnson won the title,Once champion johns decided he wanted more than a share of the paltry£6000 The NSC offered.'s I've seen you say sites were available in several countries including Russia! lol

That was certainly a boxing hot spot back in the early1900's.A country with no professional boxing what so ever!

Being of low IQ ,you don't seem to realise boxers do not make matches, promoters do,and they do so with the expectation that they will make a profit.


Jim Coffroth . " Two blacks, fighting for the heavyweight title would not draw flies."

Tex Rickard,,"An all black heavyweight title fight isn't worth a bucket of warn spit."

Barney Curley. " Two black heavyweights boxing for the title wouldn't make two cents"

Didn't he make less than 6,000 pounds for Burns? Yep. There are numerous offers from know promoters in the press for Johnson to sign vs. Langford and Jeannette. You do know how to search the web right? Two black men did fight to the Johnson's title. It was pulled a draw, but Jim Batting Johnson was the winner according to one judge, the other two men couldn't make up their minds and gave Johnson as pass on his title! Draw. In this fight in France, Jack Johnson surely would have made more money vs. Langford and Jeannette! But he chose as easier mark and was beaten down to the point where he was teetering on a knockout. Anyway the French stripped Jack Johnson of his title for avoiding the talent. They were better black fighters in Langford and Jeannette. Read this:

Jack Johnson barely missed losing his heavyweight championship in a ten round bout here last night. Jeffries' conqueror met Battling Jim Johnson, a big negro from Memphis Tenn. and barely lasted through the final round. He was tottering and groggy at the finish. A few rounds more and he might have been knocked out. . . . In the last minute of the fight the Memphis negro rushed Johnson to the ropes and in a mixup both went to the floor, with Jack's arm around Jim's waist. Both were on their feet quickly but Jack looked exhausted just as the final bell rang. It is possible that Jack hurt his arm in the fall to the floor. . . . In the seventh round the Memphis man succeeded in breaking down Jack's guard and three times after landing on the body grazed Jack's jaw with terrific uppercuts

Johnson did not make much vs. O'Brien, Ross, Kaufman, Jim Battling Johnson, or Moran! Forget the $ 30,000.00 demand and excuses. Johnson made far less. Got it? He would have made more vs. Langford and Jeannette, but as we known he ducked them as champion!

You remain an empty suit who offers bogus points. All those offers....yet not fights vs. the talent.

[Dr. Z]

Dude, I posted the info about Johnson's injury postponing the fight about twice now. All you have to do is read.

If you don't like that I don't give you the name of every newspaper article, then don't like it? If you think I am somehow making these newspapers myself, then you are a madman. The reason I don't often include the newspaper name and date is because these sport sections are huge with tons of articles so I have to pluck out just the exact article on the topic, and so I don't often have the paper name and date in range to capture it and I don't always remember to jot it down.

And yes, you are making my point. They weren't the same fight and some of them were money grabs. For the real fight Jeffries wouldn't put up that title because he was afraid he would lose, in my opinion. Same reason most of these guys were afraid to fight Black fighters.


I've never made a mention of which were and which weren't title fights, only to mention the Jeannette fight was definitely to be for the title.



Go back and read the article I posted that states clearly Johnson had to postpone the Moran fight due to injury. IT'S RIGHT IN THIS THREAD. ON PAGE 5 for me. If you have some people on ignore I guess it could be on a different page for you, but it is around there. You can't miss it since unfortunately the newspaper clippings often post very big.

I read that it was postponed. So what? You do not post these purses or O'brein, Ross, Kaufman, Jim Johnson , or list what he made vs. Moran because you either don't know or choose not to list it because it does not suit your agenda. We know.

Jeffries avoided matches vs. black fighters such as Peter Jackson ( who people that saw both said he was better than Johnson ) Hank Griffin 2 times ( who beat Johnson officially once and drew with him getting the better of ) twice. And Bob Armstrong who could punch a bit that Johnson mysteriously did not fight? Sure, he would not fight back fighters, sure. Keep telling you self that. And Jeffries offer Johnson a private fight in 1901, but Johnson balked at it and quilted walked away. If a Reno like purse who out there for Johnson who could not draw flies back then, we'd see that fight when Jeffries was in his prime. But there was none. Jeffries retired and Hart beat Johnson. Jeffries said he would fight if there was demand for it There wasn't as people felt it would be blow out loss, al la Jack Munroe. A fighter that the way took Johnson the distance. As did Pete Everett another fighter that Jeffries blew out.


No one thought that Johnson would beat Jeffries when he was active from 1899 to 1904 when he was champion. Not one man said this. He lost to guys Jeffries did much better vs common opponents. I could list FIVE men. Even when he came back in-active for six years and had to lose a lot weight to get in shape fellow black fighter such as Langford and Jeannette poked Jeffries to win easy, but they were bashing on the fighter who was , not the shell of a man who retired in 1910.

Your opinion that Johnson would have won form 1899-1904 is something that NO ONE alive then agrees with in print. All of the above are FACTS. Admit it, you have an agenda.

[Willie Pep 229]

Dude, I posted the info about Johnson's injury postponing the fight about twice now. All you have to do is read.

If you don't like that I don't give you the name of every newspaper article, then don't like it? If you think I am somehow making these newspapers myself, then you are a madman. The reason I don't often include the newspaper name and date is because these sport sections are huge with tons of articles so I have to pluck out just the exact article on the topic, and so I don't often have the paper name and date in range to capture it and I don't always remember to jot it down.

And yes, you are making my point. They weren't the same fight and some of them were money grabs. For the real fight Jeffries wouldn't put up that title because he was afraid he would lose, in my opinion. Same reason most of these guys were afraid to fight Black fighters.


I've never made a mention of which were and which weren't title fights, only to mention the Jeannette fight was definitely to be for the title.



Go back and read the article I posted that states clearly Johnson had to postpone the Moran fight due to injury. IT'S RIGHT IN THIS THREAD. ON PAGE 5 for me. If you have some people on ignore I guess it could be on a different page for you, but it is around there. You can't miss it since unfortunately the newspaper clippings often post very big.

Na, phuck it.

[travestyny]

I read that it was postponed. So what? You do not post these purses or O'brein, Ross, Kaufman, Jim Johnson , or list what he made vs. Moran because you either don't know or choose not to list it because it does not suit your agenda. We know.

Jeffries avoided matches vs. black fighters such as Peter Jackson ( who people that saw both said he was better than Johnson ) Hank Griffin 2 times ( who beat Johnson officially once and drew with him getting the better of ) twice. And Bob Armstrong who could punch a bit that Johnson mysteriously did not fight? Sure, he would not fight back fighters, sure. Keep telling you self that. And Jeffries offer Johnson a private fight in 1901, but Johnson balked at it and quilted walked away. If a Reno like purse who out there for Johnson who could not draw flies back then, we'd see that fight when Jeffries was in his prime. But there was none. Jeffries retired and Hart beat Johnson. Jeffries said he would fight if there was demand for it There wasn't as people felt it would be blow out loss, al la Jack Munroe. A fighter that the way took Johnson the distance. As did Pete Everett another fighter that Jeffries blew out.


No one thought that Johnson would beat Jeffries when he was active from 1899 to 1904 when he was champion. Not one man said this. He lost to guys Jeffries did much better vs common opponents. I could list FIVE men. Even when he came back in-active for six years and had to lose a lot weight to get in shape fellow black fighter such as Langford and Jeannette poked Jeffries to win easy, but they were bashing on the fighter who was , not the shell of a man who retired in 1910.

Your opinion that Johnson would have won form 1899-1904 is something that NO ONE alive then agrees with in print. All of the above are FACTS. Admit it, you have an agenda.

Stop your bs. Griffin was described as looking like a famine survivor when Jeffries fought him. Peter Jackson was past prime. That's why your idol fought them.

He could have fought Johnson when he was prime but he didn't want any part of it. Didn't want any part of McVea either.



You keep ignoring everything written to you because you hate Johnson, most likely because he beat the tar out of your hero, or for other reasons that I won't mention but I'm sure you know.

You stepped in shlt yourself. Jeffries fought Peter Jackson and Griffin, but when it came to McVea and Johnson he was like...nahhhh....because they are Black.

Obviously it wasn't really because they were black, since he fought Blacks before. And he was called out on that in the media when he declined McVea. The reason is becauseHe didn't think he could win. He was afraid of getting that ass spanked all around the ring, which eventually happened anyway. He couldn't run from that asswhoopin anymore.


I'll tell you who thought Johnson would beat Jeffries.


....Jeffries himself. That's why he wanted no part of him. And after he took that asswhoopin he admit he could have never beat him. FACTS.



Oh, and by the way, Langford said that Jeffries looked great and was not much different than in his prime, if I remember correctly. And was impressed with how Johnson spanked him. He said Jeffries was just as fast as ever and verifiably in great shape for the amount of punishment he took ( ) He said despite Jeffries being in such good shape, Johnson made him look like a baby in the ring with him. I detect no lies!

[Dr. Z]

Stop your bs. Griffin was described as looking like a famine survivor when Jeffries fought him. Peter Jackson was past prime. That's why your idol fought them.

He could have fought Johnson when he was prime but he didn't want any part of it. Didn't want any part of McVea either.



You keep ignoring everything written to you because you hate Johnson, most likely because he beat the tar out of your hero, or for other reasons that I won't mention but I'm sure you know.

You stepped in shlt yourself. Jeffries fought Peter Jackson and Griffin, but when it came to McVea and Johnson he was like...nahhhh....because they are Black.

Obviously it wasn't really because they were black, since he fought Blacks before. And he was called out on that in the media when he declined McVea. The reason is becauseHe didn't think he could win. He was afraid of getting that ass spanked all around the ring, which eventually happened anyway. He couldn't run from that asswhoopin anymore.


I'll tell you who thought Johnson would beat Jeffries.


....Jeffries himself. That's why he wanted no part of him. And after he took that asswhoopin he admit he could have never beat him. FACTS.



Oh, and by the way, Langford said that Jeffries looked great and was not much different than in his prime, if I remember correctly. And was impressed with how Johnson spanked him. He said Jeffries was just as fast as ever and verifiably in great shape for the amount of punishment he took ( ) He said despite Jeffries being in such good shape, Johnson made him look like a baby in the ring with him. I detect no lies!

No, stop your BS. Jeffries first knocked Out Griffin in his prime than later toyed with Griffin in 1901, the same man who beat Jack Johnson in 1901 , and drew with him twice with one of those draw in 1901 being favorable toward Johnson. In 1901, the " famine survivor " beat Johnson and was apparently the better according to the ref..

Johnson is from Denver and working as Kid Carter's spar-mate. According to the San Francisco Call, while the referee called it a draw, "...Griffin did most of the leading and seemed to be the cleverer of the two..."

[QUOTE]

So Johnson hadn't really accepted anything. These extra demands had not been resolved when McIntosh decided to cancel negotiations due to the Mann Act charges. McIntosh was of the opinion that Johnson just did not wish to face Langford.

The NSC didn't spring anything on Johnson. He knew in advance he was agreeing to face Langford as champion if he beat Burns. So he backed out of a signed agreement to face Langford by demanding more money. Incidentally, the £1000/$5000 (plus 33% of the motion picture rights) he was offered was almost identical to what he was paid for O'Brien. He didn't receive anything close to his $30,000 guarantee until Jeffries.

I have both of Pollack's Johnson books. He mentions Johnson turning down a number of other offers to face Langford too.

If anything Johnson's willingness to face Jeannette doesn't reflect well him on since Jeannette was inferior to Langford. At the time of those negotiations Jeannette hadn't beaten Langford since 1905, in Sam's first fight against a heavyweight. offer you refer to from McIntosh that Johnson accepted was followed days later by Johnson making additional financial demands. This is all mentioned in Moyle's Langford bio. So Johnson hadn't really accepted anything. These extra demands had not been resolved when McIntosh decided to cancel negotiations due to the Mann Act charges. McIntosh was of the opinion that Johnson just did not wish to face Langford.

The NSC didn't spring anything on Johnson. He knew in advance he was agreeing to face Langford as champion if he beat Burns. So he backed out of a signed agreement to face Langford by demanding more money. Incidentally, the £1000/$5000 (plus 33% of the motion picture rights) he was offered was almost identical to what he was paid for O'Brien. He didn't receive anything close to his $30,000 guarantee until Jeffries.

I have both of Pollack's Johnson books. He mentions Johnson turning down a number of other offers to face Langford too.

If anything Johnson's willingness to face Jeannette doesn't reflect well him on since Jeannette was inferior to Langford. At the time of those negotiations Jeannette hadn't beaten Langford since 1905, in Sam's first fight against a heavyweight.

- Steve Compton, historian

[/QUOTE


Now if your really want Jeffries opinion on the matter he said he would have win if he was young after the fight and too the pass. A lot of them. Train stories aside these are the facts. You are an ignorant person who does not know how to view boxing. Do I have to pull out this quote for you too?