Where do you rank Vitaly Klitschko all time amongst heavyweights?

[QueensburyRules]

I had Ali behind at the time of the stoppage ,but Lyle didn't beat him up that is nonsense.

• Judge: Art Lurie 45-46
• Judge: Bill Kipp 43-49
• Judge: John Mangriciana 46-46

- - It was like the Young fight where Ali was in his dressing room for 5 rounds before he finally shows up.

Lyle extremely powerful as George showed one of many contributing to Ali's sad state of disrepair, like he had a masochistic streak in him.

[mattdonnellon]

Hello Matt. Welcome to the board. Can we see your list? I am curious to know where a season historian like yourself ranks them in general. For all we know you might have Vitali at 11th or 20th. For those of you who don't know Matt is a good historian / author and one who researches his subject material very well.

Not in list modeat the moment but about 15th...

[Silence]

Resume: Maybe 20.
H2H: 3rd place just behind Fury and Lewis.

[just the facts]

11th during the past 50 years. Clean record, acheived top 2 in the world status, impressive numbers, focused and disciplined, great height and weight, well conditioned, well schooled, excellent power, good chin, very good resume but certainly not "great", clearly lacking that historic win that other, more legendary fighters can claim, never fought for the top spot, failed in his one attempt at the world title. Excellent fighter and an even better success outside the ring. Certainly a roll model and compelling character.

1. Muhammad Ali
2. George Foreman
3. Lennox Lewis
4. Larry Holmes
5. Mike Tyson
6. Wladimir Klitschko
7.Tyson Fury
8. Joe Frazier
9. Deontay Wilder
10. Evander Holyfield
11.Vitali Klitschko
12.Anthony Joshua
13.Ken Norton
14.Rid**** Bowe
15.Jerry Quarry
16.Jimmy Young
17.Ron Lyle
18.Earnie Shavers
19.Jimmy Ellis
20.Tim Witherspoon
21.Gerry Cooney
22.Andy Ruiz Jr.
23.Mike Weaver
24.Gerrie Coetzee
25.Joe Bugner
26.Michael Dokes
27.Frank Bruno
28.Pinklon Thomas
29.Ike Ibeabuchi
30.Joe Joyce. Tie
30.David Tua

It doesn’t really matter but how do you have Foreman at 2?

[Willow The Wisp]

It doesn’t really matter but how do you have Foreman at 2?

Were do I start? Olympic gold by stopping Soviet champion Ionis Chapulis, tore through Jack O'Halloran, George Chuvalo, Gregorio Peralta, Boone Kirkman and Ted Gullick, Iron chin, record breaking power, wrecked the two men who gave a prime Ali fits, Joe Frazier and Ken Norton, participated in the most watched sporting event in history up until that time, went into retirement for two decades and came back to regain the one and only Linial Heavyweight Championship of the World. All great heavyweights on that list, but the others did no such thing. Even today they've just released a major motion picture on his life and he's worth more than a quarter of a billion USD, so he must've done something right.
Anyway, thats my story and I'm stickin' to it.

[JAB5239]

Like I said you move goal posts, but let's talk about his resume. By the standard of ring magazine who's ratings are is as good as any, Vitali by my count is 8-2 over top ten opponents and sources back this up. If you want to uses someone else's he says 7-2. There are sources like Box rec and the Wayback machine which agree with my claim. And the count of 8-2 does not include Kirk Johnson who I think was ranked the time Vitali beat him. I leave the possibly of being wrong on the point of Kirk Johnson. He was in the ring in magazine ratings as selected by The Ring magazine in the May 2003 for the 2002 annual rankings. They fought on 12-2003. This is an excellent winning percentage vs. ranked opponents. Few have better, maybe 3 men did have better winning percentages vs. ranked heavyweight fights by ring magazine.

Anyway this 8-2 recored of ranked ring magazine fighter's does not included wins over former lineal champion Briggs, or alphabet title holders Hide and Norris. It does not include Bean who fought for the title. It does not include his round won to rounds lost in his career either which is the best in history. He was never down either, in all of his professional boxing matches. He crushed all of these former champions and guys who fought for world titles and lost. The totality of which is impressive and factors in to a resume.

Vitali's resume if you add up his opponents records and winning percentage towers over most. Match it that way. Go ahead and do it. Try. You will see what I am talking about. Now I'm not saying small men below 210 pounds who were rated 50-100 years ago couldn't compete today at heavyweight, I'm saying their opponents winning percentage doesn't match Vitali opponents winning percentage. Got it?

I agree with you. Let's not change any facts. Let's drill down and examine them.

If you think men who are 210 pounds and below can compete win more than they lose in ranked matches at heavyweight today, all I can say men this size who were ring ranked in past decades have not appeared in the rankings for 20 years. Why? If that size is ideal, why not fight at heavyweight there? Okay maybe you can find 2 exceptions, but the point stands. Sorry to offend anyone, but at heavyweight things like height, weight, and reach matter. As do skills, power, punch resistance, defense, footwork , hand speed , and stamina Now I'm not saying the best in history could not have a winning record today vs. ranked men, I am saying the amount if men is very few, less than 10 for sure.

Vitali's resume is that good and not behind " a lot of guys " as you put it. It is not the best partly because an unfortunate happening when he got injured and tore a rotator cuff which required surgery and he did not get rematch to avenge his loss to Lewis either on a cuts loss with was halted by a doctor. Lewis balked at the re-match he said he would give and the money was up. He was winning both matches if that counts. Great fighters get credit for these type if losses and good fights vs. top competition correct? As stated Vitali offered fights to Haye and Valuev. They declined and were highly rated guys.

Anyway I voted for top ten historically and head to head for the reasons above reasons stated, and look forward to the discussion. Where we can examine the names and their ring records of here? Then debate the in detail. I can't change you mind, but you examine the facts you might change perspective. I do at times.

- Dr. Z

Is it really that hard for anyone to base historical rank or greatness based on his body of work? I find it ludicrous to base greatness in fights that never happened, as you want to be done.

Please don't try projecting your favorite past time onto me. How have I moved ANY goal posts?

[Pugilist89]

It's a difficult question. He wasn't a great puncher, but had good innate fighting skills. Coupled with his height and strong chin, he's probably in the top 10.

[just the facts]

Were do I start? Olympic gold by stopping Soviet champion Ionis Chapulis, tore through Jack O'Halloran, George Chuvalo, Gregorio Peralta, Boone Kirkman and Ted Gullick, Iron chin, record breaking power, wrecked the two men who gave a prime Ali fits, Joe Frazier and Ken Norton, participated in the most watched sporting event in history up until that time, went into retirement for two decades and came back to regain the one and only Linial Heavyweight Championship of the World. All great heavyweights on that list, but the others did no such thing. Even today they've just released a major motion picture on his life and he's worth more than a quarter of a billion USD, so he must've done something right.
Anyway, thats my story and I'm stickin' to it.

All good stuff but a total of three wins over truly quality opposition, in my opinion doesn’t get you #2 all time. Again, just my opinion.

[Willow The Wisp]

All good stuff but a total of three wins over truly quality opposition, in my opinion doesn’t get you #2 all time. Again, just my opinion.

Ya, that's cool. So who would you stick beyond Forman?

[Ivich]

- - It was like the Young fight where Ali was in his dressing room for 5 rounds before he finally shows up.

Lyle extremely powerful as George showed one of many contributing to Ali's sad state of disrepair, like he had a masochistic streak in him.

As usual Queenie ,when you get called on your statements you have no answer.