Lightweight GOAT, just a 2 horse race?

[Ivich]

True, but he had watched him for years. As far as what he said after Leonard he may have wavered, but my point is I don't think the fight is a whitewash and I doubt Arcel would think so either.

I never suggested it would be a white wash ,or even an easy fight.Fights between greats in their prime seldom are.

[Ivich]

True, but he had watched him for years. As far as what he said after Leonard he may have wavered, but my point is I don't think the fight is a whitewash and I doubt Arcel would think so either.

Arcel was 18 when Leonard won the title.

[JAB5239]

Arcel was 18 when Leonard won the title.

I'm not sure what you're getting at?

[Ivich]

I'm not sure what you're getting at?

I'm just speculating how much contact and viewing of Leonard,Arcel would have had access to?

[JAB5239]

I'm just speculating how much contact and viewing of Leonard,Arcel would have had access to?

Both were ***ish, from the same area and Arcel would go on to be a trainer at Stllmans gym while Leonard trained there. Who can say for sure? I'd make a confident guess and say they had plenty of contact during the years before Arcel trained him though.

[GhostofDempsey]

And how many of those names have you seen on film to make such a confident prediction about Duran's ,andViruet's chances against them?
Want to look up how old Leonard was for most for those draws/losses? 17? 18? 19?
Leonard kod Welsh in the return.
Ko'd Houck in the return
Ko'd Bloom a couple of times and beat him on points too.
Leonard was fighting every month he beat the strongest collection of light weights and men around that weight ever assembled
Lew Tendler x2
Pinkey Mitchell
Richie Mitchell
Freddie Welsh
Jack Britton
Rocky Kansas
Ever Hammer
Joe Mandot
Johnny Kilbane
Tommy Hough
And drew with welterweight great Ted Kid Lewis.
What are Viruet's best results?
A win over 14-2-1 Fernandez
A win over 7-1-0 Escalera
A draw with 10-1-2 Mamby

Do you have film on all of these “great” opponents you are touting? Pinky and Freddie Mitchell, Joe Mandot, Welsh, Kansas? Most of his fights were stay busy fights for a paycheck. Not saying he wasn’t an ATG, but you are making a little too much of opponents you have never seen nor can you quantify their alleged greatness by identifying who they beat to rank them so highly on your list of great wins for Leonard.

[Ivich]

Do you have film on all of these “great” opponents you are touting? Pinky and Freddie Mitchell, Joe Mandot, Welsh, Kansas? Most of his fights were stay busy fights for a paycheck. Not saying he wasn’t an ATG, but you are making a little too much of opponents you have never seen nor can you quantify their alleged greatness by identifying who they beat to rank them so highly on your list of great wins for Leonard.

Winning a world title is usually recognized as an indication of ability.
But there are other pointers
egTendler was a clever, left-handed boxer who was quick and had lots of "savvy"; He lost only 16 official verdicts in 172 contests, scored 39 knockouts during his career and is generally considered to be one of the finest fighters to never have won a world title; He is easily the greatest southpaw to never win one; Lew is considered by many to be the third greatest ***ish fighter of all time, behind only his arch-rival, Benny Leonard, and Barney Ross; In retirement, Tendler ran restaraunts in Atlantic City and in Philadelphia, which became a popular pre-fight hangout

He came very close to winning the Lightweight Championship against Benny Leonard; He had Leonard in serious trouble until Leonard managed to engage him in chatter, which consequently allowed Leonard to recover and win a narrow decision; His only other title shot was a narrow defeat to the great and much bigger Mickey Walker; Had he fought at any other time period in history, he "shoulda-coulda-woulda" been champion.
Kilbane was a clever, scientific boxer who did not hit with power but had plenty of ring "savvy"; He held the Featherweight Championship for 11 years; After he retired from boxing, Kilbane refereed boxing contests, operated a gym, served in the Ohio State Legislature and worked as the Clerk of the Cleveland Municipal Court

Nat Fleischer ranked Kilbane as the #5 All-Time Featherweight; Both Charley Rose and Herb Goldman ranked him as the #7 All-Time Featherweight; Kilbane was inducted into the Ring Boxing Hall of Fame in 1960 and the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 1995

Dundee moved fast, had excellent footwork and was a sharp hitter but not a powerful one; He was very crafty at bouncing off the ropes to deliver a blow or escape an attacker; Also, he was game and possessed great stamina; Nat Fleischer called him a "marvel"; He fought the best fighters available in both the featherweight and lightweight divisions

Charley Rose ranked Dundee as the #2 All-Time Featherweight; Fleischer ranked him as the #4 All-Time Featherweight; Herb Goldman ranked him as the #5 All-Time Feather; Dundee was elected to the Ring Boxing Hall of Fame in 1957 and the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 1991
Ritchie was a solid puncher and a fairly clever boxer who was blessed with fast hands; He was also game and willing to take punishment; During his career, Willie won the Lightweight Championship of the World; After he retired from the ring in 1927, he served as chief inspector on the California State Athletic Commission for 24 years, from 1937 to 1961

Willie defeated such men as Jack Britton, Ad Wolgast, "Mexican" Joe Rivers, "Harlem" Tommy Murpht, Battling Ortega, Tommy McFarland, Anton LaGrave, Bobby LaSalle, Willie Hoppe, **** Hoppe and Johnny McCarthy

Charley Rose ranked Ritchie as the #4 All-Time Lightweight; Nat Fleischer ranked him as the #8 All-Time Lightweight; Herb Goldman ranked Freddie as the #13 All-Time Lightweight; Welsh was inducted into the Ring Boxing Hall of Fame in 1962 and the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 2004

Welsh was a light hitter but was very clever and a wonderful defensive fighter; In more than 160 fights, he was stopped just once and that was by Benny Leonard; During his career, Freddie won the Lightweight Championship of the World; After retiring from the ring, he opened a gym, managed several fighters, lectured on physical education, and operated a health farm Freddie defeated such men as Abe Attell, Willie Ritchie, Ad Wolgast, Matt Wells, Leach Cross, Charley White, Ray Bronson, Milburn "Young" Saylor, Maurice Sayers, Matty Baldwin, Phil Brock, "Fighting" **** Hyland, Tommy Lowe, Hughie Mehegan, Joe Mandot, Young Erne, Johnny Summers, "Mexican" Joe Rivers, Harry Trendall and Louis "Kid" Scaler Nat Fleischer ranked Welsh as the #4 All-Time Lightweight; Charley Rose ranked him as the #5 All-Time Lightweight; Herb Goldman ranked Freddie as the #9 All-Time Lightweight; Welsh was inducted into the Ring Boxing Hall of Fame in 1960 and the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 1997

Now you can post all those great writeups about Edwin Viruet,and be sure to include all those experts who rank him in the all time top ten!


ps Its Pinky and Richie.

[GhostofDempsey]

Winning a world title is usually recognized as an indication of ability.
But there are other pointers
egTendler was a clever, left-handed boxer who was quick and had lots of "savvy"; He lost only 16 official verdicts in 172 contests, scored 39 knockouts during his career and is generally considered to be one of the finest fighters to never have won a world title; He is easily the greatest southpaw to never win one; Lew is considered by many to be the third greatest ***ish fighter of all time, behind only his arch-rival, Benny Leonard, and Barney Ross; In retirement, Tendler ran restaraunts in Atlantic City and in Philadelphia, which became a popular pre-fight hangout

He came very close to winning the Lightweight Championship against Benny Leonard; He had Leonard in serious trouble until Leonard managed to engage him in chatter, which consequently allowed Leonard to recover and win a narrow decision; His only other title shot was a narrow defeat to the great and much bigger Mickey Walker; Had he fought at any other time period in history, he "shoulda-coulda-woulda" been champion.
Kilbane was a clever, scientific boxer who did not hit with power but had plenty of ring "savvy"; He held the Featherweight Championship for 11 years; After he retired from boxing, Kilbane refereed boxing contests, operated a gym, served in the Ohio State Legislature and worked as the Clerk of the Cleveland Municipal Court

Nat Fleischer ranked Kilbane as the #5 All-Time Featherweight; Both Charley Rose and Herb Goldman ranked him as the #7 All-Time Featherweight; Kilbane was inducted into the Ring Boxing Hall of Fame in 1960 and the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 1995

Dundee moved fast, had excellent footwork and was a sharp hitter but not a powerful one; He was very crafty at bouncing off the ropes to deliver a blow or escape an attacker; Also, he was game and possessed great stamina; Nat Fleischer called him a "marvel"; He fought the best fighters available in both the featherweight and lightweight divisions

Charley Rose ranked Dundee as the #2 All-Time Featherweight; Fleischer ranked him as the #4 All-Time Featherweight; Herb Goldman ranked him as the #5 All-Time Feather; Dundee was elected to the Ring Boxing Hall of Fame in 1957 and the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 1991
Ritchie was a solid puncher and a fairly clever boxer who was blessed with fast hands; He was also game and willing to take punishment; During his career, Willie won the Lightweight Championship of the World; After he retired from the ring in 1927, he served as chief inspector on the California State Athletic Commission for 24 years, from 1937 to 1961

Willie defeated such men as Jack Britton, Ad Wolgast, "Mexican" Joe Rivers, "Harlem" Tommy Murpht, Battling Ortega, Tommy McFarland, Anton LaGrave, Bobby LaSalle, Willie Hoppe, **** Hoppe and Johnny McCarthy

Charley Rose ranked Ritchie as the #4 All-Time Lightweight; Nat Fleischer ranked him as the #8 All-Time Lightweight; Herb Goldman ranked Freddie as the #13 All-Time Lightweight; Welsh was inducted into the Ring Boxing Hall of Fame in 1962 and the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 2004

Welsh was a light hitter but was very clever and a wonderful defensive fighter; In more than 160 fights, he was stopped just once and that was by Benny Leonard; During his career, Freddie won the Lightweight Championship of the World; After retiring from the ring, he opened a gym, managed several fighters, lectured on physical education, and operated a health farm Freddie defeated such men as Abe Attell, Willie Ritchie, Ad Wolgast, Matt Wells, Leach Cross, Charley White, Ray Bronson, Milburn "Young" Saylor, Maurice Sayers, Matty Baldwin, Phil Brock, "Fighting" **** Hyland, Tommy Lowe, Hughie Mehegan, Joe Mandot, Young Erne, Johnny Summers, "Mexican" Joe Rivers, Harry Trendall and Louis "Kid" Scaler Nat Fleischer ranked Welsh as the #4 All-Time Lightweight; Charley Rose ranked him as the #5 All-Time Lightweight; Herb Goldman ranked Freddie as the #9 All-Time Lightweight; Welsh was inducted into the Ring Boxing Hall of Fame in 1960 and the International Boxing Hall of Fame in 1997

Now you can post all those great writeups about Edwin Viruet,and be sure to include all those experts who rank him in the all time top ten!


ps Its Pinky and Richie.

Those aren’t the fighters I asked you about. You posted a string of opponents for which there is no video that demonstrated their greatness while accusing me of doing the same. Then you replied with a list of different fingers to support your position. Typical.

I never said Viruet was a great
fignter, you were the one dismissing him while
touting the greatness of those fighters I inquired about.

[IronDanHamza]

Those aren’t the fighters I asked you about. You posted a string of opponents for which there is no video that demonstrated their greatness while accusing me of doing the same. Then you replied with a list of different fingers to support your position. Typical.

I never said Viruet was a great
fignter, you were the one dismissing him while
touting the greatness of those fighters I inquired about.

There is footage of Freddie Welsh.

He was a great fighter.

[GhostofDempsey]

There is footage of Freddie Welsh.

He was a great fighter.

He was also ten years older than Leonard and closer to the end of his career.