Lightweight GOAT, just a 2 horse race?

[Ivich]

He was also ten years older than Leonard and closer to the end of his career.

He was the reigning Lightweight champion 31 who had defended his title against Battling Nelson that same year. Does that age difference also work for when Leonard was having tough fihgts with experienced pros when he was 17 and18.?Or does it only count one way?lol

[GhostofDempsey]

He was the reigning Lightweight champion 31 who had defended his title against Battling Nelson that same year. Does that age difference also work for when Leonard was having tough fihgts with experienced pros when he was 17 and18.?Or does it only count one way?lol

You haven’t given me the rundown on those fighters you initially listed as great opponents.

Again, I am not questioning Leonard’s greatness. You are glossing over Duran’s though. Is it because he worked over your fellow countryman Buchanan?

[IronDanHamza]

He was also ten years older than Leonard and closer to the end of his career.

You said he was a stay busy fight with no film on him.

You know who Freddie Welsh is, right?

An ATG fighter and very far from a "stay busy" fight.

[Ivich]

You haven’t given me the rundown on those fighters you initially listed as great opponents.

Again, I am not questioning Leonard’s greatness. You are glossing over Duran’s though. Is it because he worked over your fellow countryman Buchanan?

Buchanan is Scottish,I am English we are far from ," fellow countrymen"lol
I have no nationalistic bias regarding boxing,indeed I consider many of my," fellow countrymen," boxers overated.

You don't seem to know anything about most of Leonard's opponents,yet you are quick to assume he would not beat Duran.
.Before making such sweeping statements,I'd suggest you read up on Benny,there are biographies on him out there,and they will hopefully give you a more complete picture on him and the quality of his opponents,than a 2 minute trawl of Box Rec has.

For the record Duran is one of my top all time 4 light weights and in my top ten all time P4P.

[Ivich]

Both were ***ish, from the same area and Arcel would go on to be a trainer at Stllmans gym while Leonard trained there. Who can say for sure? I'd make a confident guess and say they had plenty of contact during the years before Arcel trained him though.

Leonard was a NY native, Arcel was from Indiana.Leonard in his lightweight years was trained exclusively by Doc Robb both he and Leonard mentored an aspiring trainer, but it wasn't Ray Arcel it was Bill Gore.

[JAB5239]

Leonard was a NY native, Arcel was from Indiana.Leonard in his lightweight years was trained exclusively by Doc Robb both he and Leonard mentored an aspiring trainer, but it wasn't Ray Arcel it was Bill Gore.

Arcel moved to New York before he was 6. He was 3 years younger than Leonard and already training fighters in his early 20's. I stand by my assertion that it stands to reason he would have been familiar with Leonard. Benny was obviously familiar with Arcel as he asked him to train him for his comeback. From my reading it says they were already friends but I haven't found anything that says what year that friendship began. But being in the same area, both ***s, and both thinkers with the Stillmans gym connection... .

[GhostofDempsey]

Buchanan is Scottish,I am English we are far from ," fellow countrymen"lol
I have no nationalistic bias regarding boxing,indeed I consider many of my," fellow countrymen," boxers overated.

You don't seem to know anything about most of Leonard's opponents,yet you are quick to assume he would not beat Duran.
.Before making such sweeping statements,I'd suggest you read up on Benny,there are biographies on him out there,and they will hopefully give you a more complete picture on him and the quality of his opponents,than a 2 minute trawl of Box Rec has.

For the record Duran is one of my top all time 4 light weights and in my top ten all time P4P.

I know about Leonard’s opponents, but we are four replies into this and you have yet to prove the greatness of those opponents you originally touted on his resume. All while you trashed Viruet.

Maybe it’s a reading comprehension challenge but I’ve said on multiple posts now I am fully aware of Leonard’s greatness. You seem to want to push a disagreement for sake of just disagreeing, when we both agree he was a great fighter.

[GhostofDempsey]

You said he was a stay busy fight with no film on him.

You know who Freddie Welsh is, right?

An ATG fighter and very far from a "stay busy" fight.

I said stay busy regarding the entire list Ivich rattled off in addition to the dozens of other stay busy fights he fought. Just like Robinson and Pep. Boxing was different then. What limited film here is on Welsh doesn’t look any more impressive than Viruet to be honest.

[IronDanHamza]

I said stay busy regarding the entire list Ivich rattled off in addition to the dozens of other stay busy fights he fought. Just like Robinson and Pep. Boxing was different then. What limited film here is on Welsh doesn’t look any more impressive than Viruet to be honest.

But why would you list Welsh as an example of a stay busy fight or imply that it's some kind of nothing fight when it was literally a fight against an ATG when he was the champion? It's a ludicrous and frankly incorrect take.

It seems to me you weren't aware who Freddie Welsh was in all honesty.

And Welsh and Viruet are not in the same stratosphere, at all.

[GhostofDempsey]

But why would you list Welsh as an example of a stay busy fight or imply that it's some kind of nothing fight when it was literally a fight against an ATG when he was the champion? It's a ludicrous and frankly incorrect take.

It seems to me you weren't aware who Freddie Welsh was in all honesty.

And Welsh and Viruet are not in the same stratosphere, at all.

I don’t consider Welsh an ATG for one thing. He was also past his best when Leonard beat him. Welsh clinched a lot, and lunged in with his punches. A bit crude IMO.

I can post footage of both Welsh and Viruet and you can explain all the nuances of how Welsh is so much better. During his prime he was losing or fighting to a draw with fighters who were worse than Viruet. I am not claiming Viruet was a great fighter, but he fought Duran competitively. It was a bad style match up for Duran, and Viruet had a granite chin in his prime.