Lightweight GOAT, just a 2 horse race?

[Ivich]

I'm not going against your opinion by any means. I'm just not as cut and dry about it. Ray Arcel said Leonard was the best fighter he ever trained, the most intelligent. He teeters on picking who was better p4p, Leonard or Robinson. Who knows, maybe Leonard catches the Duran who lost to DeJesus in '72. That wasn't Durun in his absolute prime, but DeJesus was no Benny Leonard either. Would be an interesting fight to say the least. To many variables for me personally to just say one wins easily over the other.

Arcel only trained the come backing bankrupt welterweight version of Leonard.After Duran beat Sugar Ray Hugh McIllvanney asked him who was better Benny or Duran,he said Duran

[Ivich]

Blinky yes - Frankie Carbo he had no official connection to anything/anybody. Lol!

Unofficially he got a piece of Basilio's managers end,Freddie Beshore's,Don Jordan's,Jimmy Carter's,Clarence Henry's ,and several others.

[Ivich]

Leonard isn’t big enough to keep Duran off him IMO. I think Duran beats him convincingly either by UD or late stoppage. Duran was able to bully Middleweights man. When Duran was fully dedicated and still had that hunger that he arguably lost after the Ray Leonard win, he was irrepressible.

I’m not trying to dismiss Leonard he’s a all time great in his own right and true pioneer of the sport along with guys like Gene Tunney and in later years Willie Pep in popularising a style based on being more defensively aware and boxing off the back foot using lateral movement. However, there’s no way he beats Duran IMO. If they fought 10 times I think Duran wins all 10.

Edwin Viruet who wasn't half the boxer Leonard was managed it.Leonard fought better competition than Duran.

[Willie Pep 229]

Unofficially he got a piece of Basilio's managers end,Freddie Beshore's,Don Jordan's,Jimmy Carter's,Clarence Henry's ,and several others.

Unofficially the IBC got a piece of every fight at The Garden, St. Nick's Arena, and the LA Auditorium.

IBC was actually a manager's union and New York and California allowed 'close shop' venues.

Being the only union in town, if NBC/CBS/ABC/Dumont wanted to televise a prize fight out of New York or LA, they had to use a fighter whose manager was in 'the union.'

Instead of corrupting a union like the Teamsters, Carbo did it one better, he created a corrupt union right from the get go.

He used Joe Louis to sign-up the important people and then bought out Louis' stock.

The third name you got to add to the mix is Jim Norris, president of the IBC and silent partner of the Twentieth Century Boxing Club. (They bought the promotion company off the dying 'Uncle' Mike Jacobs.)

What a trifecta they made.

[JAB5239]

Arcel only trained the come backing bankrupt welterweight version of Leonard.After Duran beat Sugar Ray Hugh McIllvanney asked him who was better Benny or Duran,he said Duran

True, but he had watched him for years. As far as what he said after Leonard he may have wavered, but my point is I don't think the fight is a whitewash and I doubt Arcel would think so either.

[RJJ-94-02=GOAT]

I'm not going against your opinion by any means. I'm just not as cut and dry about it. Ray Arcel said Leonard was the best fighter he ever trained, the most intelligent. He teeters on picking who was better p4p, Leonard or Robinson. Who knows, maybe Leonard catches the Duran who lost to DeJesus in '72. That wasn't Durun in his absolute prime, but DeJesus was no Benny Leonard either. Would be an interesting fight to say the least. To many variables for me personally to just say one wins easily over the other.

If we’re talking mitigating circumstances, there’s every chance Duran crashes the weight or doesn’t prepare properly and that obviously changes things but if we’re talking peak for peak I see no way Leonard wins.

[RJJ-94-02=GOAT]

Edwin Viruet who wasn't half the boxer Leonard was managed it.Leonard fought better competition than Duran.

That’s like saying if Fleming stopped Leonard so could Duran. It’s irrelevant. You can’t judge fighters off stay busy fights and tune ups. You don’t prepare for Viruet and Fleming the same way you prepare for a great.

[Willie Pep 229]

Arcel only trained the come backing bankrupt welterweight version of Leonard.After Duran beat Sugar Ray Hugh McIllvanney asked him who was better Benny or Duran,he said Duran

Yea but that was his guy at the time. The other guy was two decades dead. Of course he said Duran. He might even have believed it? But of course he said it.

[GhostofDempsey]

Edwin Viruet who wasn't half the boxer Leonard was managed it.Leonard fought better competition than Duran.

And Leonard struggled with names like Phil Bloom, Bobby Reynolds, Willie Jones, Tommy Houck, Young Abe Brown, Kid Black, Freddie Welsh...losing to most of them at some point. All fighters Duran could have beaten. Viruet fights them all competitively, and likely pulls off a few wins.

[Ivich]

And Leonard struggled with names like Phil Bloom, Bobby Reynolds, Willie Jones, Tommy Houck, Young Abe Brown, Kid Black, Freddie Welsh...losing to most of them at some point. All fighters Duran could have beaten. Viruet fights them all competitively, and likely pulls off a few wins.

And how many of those names have you seen on film to make such a confident prediction about Duran's ,andViruet's chances against them?
Want to look up how old Leonard was for most for those draws/losses? 17? 18? 19?
Leonard kod Welsh in the return.
Ko'd Houck in the return
Ko'd Bloom a couple of times and beat him on points too.
Leonard was fighting every month he beat the strongest collection of light weights and men around that weight ever assembled
Lew Tendler x2
Pinkey Mitchell
Richie Mitchell
Freddie Welsh
Jack Britton
Rocky Kansas
Ever Hammer
Joe Mandot
Johnny Kilbane
Tommy Hough
And drew with welterweight great Ted Kid Lewis.
What are Viruet's best results?
A win over 14-2-1 Fernandez
A win over 7-1-0 Escalera
A draw with 10-1-2 Mamby