Lightweight GOAT, just a 2 horse race?

[IronDanHamza]

I don’t consider Welsh an ATG for one thing. He was also past his best when Leonard beat him. Welsh clinched a lot, and lunged in with his punches. A bit crude IMO.

I can post footage of both Welsh and Viruet and you can explain all the nuances of how Welsh is so much better. During his prime he was losing or fighting to a draw with fighters who were worse than Viruet. I am not claiming Viruet was a great fighter, but he fought Duran competitively. It was a bad style match up for Duran, and Viruet had a granite chin in his prime.

I think it's pretty clear you weren't aware who Freddie Welsh was.

If you're actually going to try and argue that Viruet and Welsh are even remotely on the same level as fighters then there's not much else to say other than you're obviously wrong.

[Ivich]

Arcel moved to New York before he was 6. He was 3 years younger than Leonard and already training fighters in his early 20's. I stand by my assertion that it stands to reason he would have been familiar with Leonard. Benny was obviously familiar with Arcel as he asked him to train him for his comeback. From my reading it says they were already friends but I haven't found anything that says what year that friendship began. But being in the same area, both ***s, and both thinkers with the Stillmans gym connection... .

Its possible they knew each other from Stillmans my point is I often see posters on forums saying Arcel trained the great Benny Leonard and we both know he didn't he trained the overweight past prime version of Leonard who was forced to make a comeback when his savings were wiped out in the crash.During his lightweight days I have never come across a reference to Arcel.
If you haven't already read this, you might find it interesting.

Benny “The ****** Wizard” Leonard - Clutch City Boxing

[Ivich]

I know about Leonard’s opponents, but we are four replies into this and you have yet to prove the greatness of those opponents you originally touted on his resume. All while you trashed Viruet.

Maybe it’s a reading comprehension challenge but I’ve said on multiple posts now I am fully aware of Leonard’s greatness. You seem to want to push a disagreement for sake of just disagreeing, when we both agree he was a great fighter.

I didn't trash Viruet,this is my statement.
"Edwin Viruet who wasn't half the boxer Leonard was"
I stand by that

You have a habit of willfully misinterpreting others posts and then disagreeing with your version of what they said ,its very strange.

As to Freddie Welsh,his victims include
Benny Leonard
Abe Attell
Cyclone Johnny Thompson
Johnny Dundee
Charley White x3
Matty Baldwin
Willie Ritchie x2
Leach Cross
Pal Moore
Joe Rivers
Ad Wolgast x3
Joe Mandot
Jim Driscoll
And two draws with Packy McFarland
Such a resume makes him a great fighter.IMO
Welsh is all time top ten for many boxing historians so I'm not alone in considering him great.
We have managed to keep this civil so far,lets continue like that.

[GhostofDempsey]

I didn't trash Viruet,this is my statement.
"Edwin Viruet who wasn't half the boxer Leonard was"
I stand by that

You have a habit of willfully misinterpreting others posts and then disagreeing with your version of what they said ,its very strange.

As to Freddie Welsh,his victims include
Benny Leonard
Abe Attell
Cyclone Johnny Thompson
Johnny Dundee
Charley White x3
Matty Baldwin
Willie Ritchie x2
Leach Cross
Pal Moore
Joe Rivers
Ad Wolgast x3
Joe Mandot
Jim Driscoll
And two draws with Packy McFarland
Such a resume makes him a great fighter.IMO
Welsh is all time top ten for many boxing historians so I'm not alone in considering him great.
We have managed to keep this civil so far,lets continue like that.

You were trashing Viruet while marginalizing the records of some of his opponents. Didn’t see you posting the records of Leonard’s opponents you listed when he beat them. My point is, almost every fighter has a nemesis who he struggles with that is often a lesser fighter. Manny struggled with Horn, Robinson with Basora and Brimm, Pep against names like McCallister and Collins, Dempsey with Meehan, …it didn’t tarnish their legacy, nor does Duran having a tough go with Viruet.

Pinkey Mitchell
Richie Mitchell
Freddie Welsh
Jack Britton
Rocky Kansas
Ever Hammer
Joe Mandot
Johnny Kilbane
Tommy Hough
And drew with welterweight great Ted Kid Lewis.
What are Viruet's best results?
A win over 14-2-1 Fernandez
A win over 7-1-0 Escalera
A draw with 10-1-2 Mamby

Pinky had 7 losses and 4 draws in 49 fights by the time he faced Leonard.
Richie had 2 losses and 9 draws in 39 fights.
Kansas had 21 losses and 14 draws.
Welsh had 20 losses and 13 draws.
Britton was getting the better of Leonard in their WW title fight until he was fouled and Leonard DQ’d.
Hammer finished his career with a record of 39-18-14, hardly an opponent worth mentioning.
Mandot 52-18-12.
Hough? Did you mean Houck?

[Ivich]

You were trashing Viruet while marginalizing the records of some of his opponents. Didn’t see you posting the records of Leonard’s opponents you listed when he beat them. My point is, almost every fighter has a nemesis who he struggles with that is often a lesser fighter. Manny struggled with Horn, Robinson with Basora and Brimm, Pep against names like McCallister and Collins, Dempsey with Meehan, …it didn’t tarnish their legacy, nor does Duran having a tough go with Viruet.

Pinkey Mitchell
Richie Mitchell
Freddie Welsh
Jack Britton
Rocky Kansas
Ever Hammer
Joe Mandot
Johnny Kilbane
Tommy Hough
And drew with welterweight great Ted Kid Lewis.
What are Viruet's best results?
A win over 14-2-1 Fernandez
A win over 7-1-0 Escalera
A draw with 10-1-2 Mamby

Pinky had 7 losses and 4 draws in 49 fights by the time he faced Leonard.
Richie had 2 losses and 9 draws in 39 fights.
Kansas had 21 losses and 14 draws.
Welsh had 20 losses and 13 draws.
Britton was getting the better of Leonard in their WW title fight until he was fouled and Leonard DQ’d.
Hammer finished his career with a record of 39-18-14, hardly an opponent worth mentioning.
Mandot 52-18-12.
Hough? Did you mean Houck?

Saying Leonard was twice the boxer Viruet was isn't trashing him thats just ridiculous. I posted Viruets best results do you agree or disagree with them? Posting facts isnt trashing!
Leonard beat Britton before their welterweight title fight in which he was conceding 6 pounds to Britton and still floored him.

[IronDanHamza]

You were trashing Viruet while marginalizing the records of some of his opponents. Didn’t see you posting the records of Leonard’s opponents you listed when he beat them. My point is, almost every fighter has a nemesis who he struggles with that is often a lesser fighter. Manny struggled with Horn, Robinson with Basora and Brimm, Pep against names like McCallister and Collins, Dempsey with Meehan, …it didn’t tarnish their legacy, nor does Duran having a tough go with Viruet.

Pinkey Mitchell
Richie Mitchell
Freddie Welsh
Jack Britton
Rocky Kansas
Ever Hammer
Joe Mandot
Johnny Kilbane
Tommy Hough
And drew with welterweight great Ted Kid Lewis.
What are Viruet's best results?
A win over 14-2-1 Fernandez
A win over 7-1-0 Escalera
A draw with 10-1-2 Mamby

Pinky had 7 losses and 4 draws in 49 fights by the time he faced Leonard.
Richie had 2 losses and 9 draws in 39 fights.
Kansas had 21 losses and 14 draws.
Welsh had 20 losses and 13 draws.
Britton was getting the better of Leonard in their WW title fight until he was fouled and Leonard DQ’d.
Hammer finished his career with a record of 39-18-14, hardly an opponent worth mentioning.
Mandot 52-18-12.
Hough? Did you mean Houck?

In all honesty, you don't know who barely any of these fighters you're mentioning are and it's very transparent.

So you should probably just stop talking about them and this topic.

[GhostofDempsey]

Saying Leonard was twice the boxer Viruet was isn't trashing him thats just ridiculous. I posted Viruets best results do you agree or disagree with them? Posting facts isnt trashing!
Leonard beat Britton before their welterweight title fight in which he was conceding 6 pounds to Britton and still floored him.

You posted a long string of no-hopers that I exposed and now you are deflecting.

[GhostofDempsey]

In all honesty, you don't know who barely any of these fighters you're mentioning are and it's very transparent.

So you should probably just stop talking about them and this topic.

Apparently you and Ivich don’t know who they are because I just had to dig their records up to show how “not so great” they were. You can be his cheerleader all day long, but it won’t change the fact that his list of so-called great wins was in fact marginal in terms of accomplishment. He should have listed the few great wins he had at 135 and left it at that.

[IronDanHamza]

Apparently you and Ivich don’t know who they are because I just had to dig their records up to show how “not so great” they were. You can be his cheerleader all day long, but it won’t change the fact that his list of so-called great wins was in fact marginal in terms of accomplishment. He should have listed the few great wins he had at 135 and left it at that.

Oh yeah.

It's clear as day that you have no clue what so ever about that era of boxing.

I just pointed out the glaring example which was Freddie Welsh, but there's plenty others that you are clearly clueless about with your comments.

I mean, you literally just said that Freddie Welsh, the #1 Lightweight on the Planet at the time, was a "stay busy" fight.

You then said there's no footage of him, then when I corrected you that there was, you then came back by saying he "lunges and is crude" So what happened to there being no footage of him 5 minutes earlier according to you, genius? You obviously went on Youtube and watched the few pieces of footage they have on there and have made that incredibly poor assessment.

The fact you described Freddie Welsh as "crude" is just embarrassing mate. You seriously should quit while you're miles behind at this point.

[Ivich]

Oh yeah.

It's clear as day that you have no clue what so ever about that era of boxing.

I just pointed out the glaring example which was Freddie Welsh, but there's plenty others that you are clearly clueless about with your comments.

I mean, you literally just said that Freddie Welsh, the #1 Lightweight on the Planet at the time, was a "stay busy" fight.

You then said there's no footage of him, then when I corrected you that there was, you then came back by saying he "lunges and is crude" So what happened to there being no footage of him 5 minutes earlier according to you, genius? You obviously went on Youtube and watched the few pieces of footage they have on there and have made that incredibly poor assessment.

The fact you described Freddie Welsh as "crude" is just embarrassing mate. You seriously should quit while you're miles behind at this point.

He has been exposed countless times,but give him credit,he always comes back for more! lol