Tunney Versus jack Johnson who wins and why

[Ivich]

- - He was considering JJ before JJ got beat up by Hart. McVey just a kid as was Jeannette and Wills still boy.

Kinda like U proving inept in timelines of Austin.

BS! Jeffries picked Johnson to beat Hart and stated that, if Johnson won he would NOT defend against him!

Why don't some of you TROLLS actually read the contemporary reports before opening your ****** mouths?

[Willie Pep 229]

Do public statements from Jeffries that he would NEVER defend his title against a black man for fear of;losing his title to one, count with you ?
What confirmation do you require? Let me know and I will endeavour to provide it!

No that is fine - for identifying Jeffries refusal to cross the color line. It doesn't necessaite him being frightened of Johnson. His supposed fear is purely your conjecture.

Here's why I think that:

All he, Jeffries had to do in 1910, was stay retired and there would always be an * next to JJ's name, as the white supremacists would have discredited Burns, denying he was ever truely champion.

This was in the process of happening post Burns, White newspapers were already floating the theory that JJ wasn't champion until he beat Jeffries.

Jeffries was in position to leave JJ twitching in the wind with only a Negro's man claim to the title, while the Whites would develop another white champion.

The White newspapers were powerful enough to write the history of boxing as they saw fit. The lineage of the lineal title today would read: Sullivan, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Jeffries; John Doe . . . With only geeks like us being aware of Tommy Burns and Jack Johnson.

In short, Jeffries held the cards as to whether JJ got full credit or not.

Which then brings us to the question: Why did Jeffries, who doesn't want a Negro to be given a chance to be champion, offer JJ such the opportunity of gaining full credibility with a defeat over him (Jeffries) in 1910?

Of course the simple answer would be that Jeffries believed he'd win. But if Jeffries believed he'd win in 1910, then the whole theory that Jeffries drew the color line back in 1904 because he was scared of Johnson, goes out the window.

So maybe you should dump the word "fear" from your rhetoric and accept that Jeffries was a bigot, not frightened.

But it seems calling white fighters of the color line era cowards makes some people feel better.

Anyway you offered so I'll request from you --> Explain to me why a frightened man at the height of his prowess in 1904, decides six years out that he's not scare any longer. Endeavor to answer that question for me.

Every one of us on this forum has performed in some form of competitive sport and everyone of us knows, including you, that confidence grows with preparation. Jeffries can't be more confident in 1910 than he was in 1904. That makes no sense.

If Jeffries was scared of JJ in 1904 why wasn't he scared in 1910?

"Riddle me that, Batman"

[Ivich]

No that is fine - for identifying Jeffries refusal to cross the color line. It doesn't necessaite him being frightened of Johnson. His supposed fear is purely your conjecture.

Here's why I think that:

All he, Jeffries had to do in 1910, was stay retired and there would always be an * next to JJ's name, as the white supremacists would have discredited Burns, denying he was ever truely champion.

This was in the process of happening post Burns, White newspapers were already floating the theory that JJ wasn't champion until he beat Jeffries.

Jeffries was in position to leave JJ twitching in the wind with only a Negro's man claim to the title, while the Whites would develop another white champion.

The White newspapers were powerful enough to write the history of boxing as they saw fit. The lineage of the lineal title today would read: Sullivan, Corbett, Fitzsimmons, Jeffries; John Doe . . . With only geeks like us being aware of Tommy Burns and Jack Johnson.

In short, Jeffries held the cards as to whether JJ got full credit or not.

Which then brings us to the question: Why did Jeffries, who doesn't want a Negro to be given a chance to be champion, offer JJ such the opportunity of gaining full credibility with a defeat over him (Jeffries) in 1910?

Of course the simple answer would be that Jeffries believed he'd win. But if Jeffries believed he'd win in 1910, then the whole theory that Jeffries drew the color line back in 1904 because he was scared of Johnson, goes out the window.

So maybe you should dump the word "fear" from your rhetoric and accept that Jeffries was a bigot, not frightened.

But it seems calling white fighters of the color line era cowards makes some people feel better.

Anyway you offered so I'll request from you --> Explain to me why a frightened man at the height of his prowess in 1904, decides six years out that he's not scare any longer. Endeavor to answer that question for me.

Every one of us on this forum has performed in some form of competitive sport and everyone of us knows, including you, that confidence grows with preparation. Jeffries can't be more confident in 1910 than he was in 1904. That makes no sense.

If Jeffries was scared of JJ in 1904 why wasn't he scared in 1910?

"Riddle me that, Batman"

You misunderstand me,probably I phrased it wrong? Jeffries was frightened of losing his title to a black man he wasnt physically afraid of Johnson.I doubt he was physically afraid of any man,but he was terrified at the prospect of losing his title to a Black man.
"I will not fight Johnson,I will never take a chance of losing my title to a Black man,when I am beaten it will by a member of my own race ,the White race.
Jeffries said these words and others very like them countless times and he did so in print, so at least he was open and honest about it.
If there should be an asterisk against anyone's name shouldn't that be Jeffries rather than Johnson? Johnson wanted to fight Jeffries 6 years before he finally got the opportunity. Any ducking done was on Jeffries part not Johnson's.
Until Burns gave Johnson his chance every heavyweight champion could justifiably have been called just the White Heavyweight Champion,could they not?
You could put asterisks against
Sullivans name, no George Godfrey no Peter Jackson on his resume
Corbett,no Peter Jackson whilst Corbett was champion.
Fitzsimmons rather more murky imo.
Hart said he would never fight another ******after receiving a dubious dec over Johnson
.
Jeffries was the champion in1904 he was not going to chance losing his crown to a man of colour.That's why he refused to defend against Denver Ed Martin,Sam McVey and Jack Johnson despite decent guarantees to do so, guarantees that would have been far more lucrative than the purses he received in joke gimmee fights with Finnegan,Kennedy ,and Munroe.

Jeffries was very dissatisfied with his purse for the Munroe debacle and with no credible white challengers on the horizon
and growing pressure from the press to man up and take on Johnson he retired.No heavyweight champ had retired undefeated ,his position was therefore unassailable if black challengers were disallowed.

Jeffries was merely a challenger in1910 he had no title to lose.
Riddle solved Robin!
White Supremacists are alive and well living in our society today.

[Willie Pep 229]

You misunderstand me, Jeffries was frightened of losing his title to a black man he wasnt physically afraid of Johnson.I doubt he was physically afraid of any man,but he was terrified at the prospect of losing his title to a Black man.
"I will not fight Johnson,I will never take a chance of losing my title to a Black man,when I am beaten it will by a member of my own race ,the White race.
Jeffries said these words and others very like them countless times and he did so in print, so at least he was open and honest about it.
.
Jeffries was the champion in1904 he was not going to chance losing his crown to a man of colour.That's why he refused to defend against Denver Ed Martin,Sam McVey and Jack Johnson despite decent guarantees to do so, guarantees that would have been far more lucrative than the purses he received in joke gimmee fights with Finnegan,Kennedy ,and Munroe.

Jeffries was very dissatisfied with his purse for the Munroe debacle and with no credible white challengers on the horizon
and growing pressure from the press to man up and take on Johnson he retired.No heavyweight champ had retired undefeated ,his position was therefore unassailable if black challengers were disallowed.

Jeffries was merely a challenger in1910 he had no title to lose.
Riddle solved Robin!

No I didn't misunderstand you or the quote - the topic of conversation was Jeffries fear of Johnson. A pet subject of T's.

If you were not replying to that fear and not supporting or challeging the notion of that supposed fear why did you involved yourself into the conversation with that quote.

It was pretty clear what both my posts were addressing so why the non sequitur reply?

Don't bother answering.

NO - You are incorrect, to many whites, by convenience JJ wasn't champion because he had beaten only the claimant Burns not the real champion Jeffries.

Jeffries was not merely the challenger in 1910 and had he won that afternoon in Reno it is likely JJ (and Burns) would not have been listed as champion for several decades.

You don't seem to understand how to think like an Egypian, often taking your personal values and bias and trying to impose them on the past.

[Ivich]

No I didn't misunderstand you or the quote - the topic of conversation was Jeffries fear of Johnson. A pet subject of T's.

If you were not replying to that fear and not supporting or challeging the notion of that supposed fear why did you involved yourself into the conversation with that quote.

It was pretty clear what both my posts were addressing so why the non sequitur reply?

Don't bother answering.

NO - You are incorrect, to many whites, by convenience JJ wasn't champion because he had beaten only the claimant Burns not the real champion Jeffries.

Jeffries was not merely the challenger in 1910 and had he won that afternoon in Reno it is likely JJ (and Burns) would not have been listed as champion for several decades.

You don't seem to understand how to think like an Egypian, often taking your personal values and bias and trying to impose them on the past.

Who is T?
You ask me a question but then say don't bother answering?
I'll involve myself in any public thread I want thanks.
What motives you ascribe to me are just your own projections.
You have no idea of my personal values or of any bias I may have,
Maybe you should stop trying to tell posters what and how to post?
If I was to take advice from anyone it would be from someone who doesn't make sternly admonishing posts filled with spelling mistakes.
I dont know how I offended you, it was inadvertant if I did ,maybe you're a little thin skinned ,or maybe you just don't like ,
"the cut of my jib?" Neither are crimes so enjoy your day
Jeffries was the challenger he had no official status besides that.

What White bigots called him, the Unconquered Champion Of Champions and other nonsense is irrelevant.
No I don't understand how to think like an Egypian, I don't even know what one is.

[Ivich]

Considering Burns could have ignored JJ and had it gone unchallenged - I think he owed Burns a rematch (a last big payday). Especially since you agree it wouldn't have been a tough fight.

As always we, you and I, once again disagree on the premise of the game. To you it's professional boxing and all the contemporary definitions that conjures, i.e. you always want to define boxing as a 'sport.' I say it's not. I say it was prize fighting and there were contemporaneous traditions, protocols, and politics that affected every fight.

He owed Burns the respect of a rematch, one last payday. No Tommy Burns and we wouldn't t be talking JJ today.

I don't think he owed Burns anything ,Tommy took virtually all the money for a huge payday of $30,000 insulted ,Johnson right up until the fight calling him many choice racial epiphets and saying he had a yellow streak.
When did Burns respect Johnson?
Johnson beat the piss out of Burns ,there was no demand for a rematch.
Johnson had to wait until he was 30 years old to get his shot,he wanted to make $$$$$ and a Burns rematch was not the way to do it! No promoter came forward with an offer to stage it ,it was dead in the water.

[Willie Pep 229]

Who is T?
You ask me a question but then say don't bother answering?
I'll involve myself in any public thread I want thanks.
What motives you ascribe to me are just your own projections.
You have no idea of my personal values or of any bias I may have,
Maybe you should stop trying to tell posters what and how to post?
If I was to take advice from anyone it would be from someone who doesn't make sternly admonishing posts filled with spelling mistakes.
I dont know how I offended you, it was inadvertant if I did ,maybe you're a little thin skinned ,or maybe you just don't like ,
"the cut of my jib?" Neither are crimes so enjoy your day
Jeffries was the challenger he had no official status besides that.

What White bigots called him, the Unconquered Champion Of Champions and other nonsense is irrelevant.
No I don't understand how to think like an Egypian, I don't even know what one is.

Yea but you need to stay on task - not offer irrelevant quotes that sort of make the other poster look wrong, and then follow that up with a condescending smirk (remark).

You have nothing original to say. You're nothing but a cut and paste wonder; we can replace you with a Google search bar.

Are you sure I'm the one with thin skin?

Your new name is Mr. Irrelevant Quote Man.

[Ivich]

Yea but you need to stay on task - not offer irrelevant quotes that sort of make the other poster look wrong, and then follow that up with a condescending smirk (remark).

You have nothing original to say. You're nothing but a cut and paste wonder; we can replace you with a Google search bar.

Are you sure I'm the one with thin skin?

Your new name is Mr. Irrelevant Quote Man.

Weren't you the one who wanted provenance of quotes or was that Willow the Wisp? If my remarks make the other poster look wrong ,maybe that's because he is? Lets not forget it's you digging me out,not the other way around here.
If you dislike,me or my content ,or both thats fine .

,Here's a tip for you. Don't read it!
I thought my name was drunken slob?
You Egypians, you just can't make up your minds!

[QueensburyRules]

I don't think he owed Burns anything ,Tommy took virtually all the money for a huge payday of $30,000 insulted ,Johnson right up until the fight calling him many choice racial epiphets and saying he had a yellow streak.
When did Burns respect Johnson?
Johnson beat the piss out of Burns ,there was no demand for a rematch.
Johnson had to wait until he was 30 years old to get his shot,he wanted to make $$$$$ and a Burns rematch was not the way to do it! No promoter came forward with an offer to stage it ,it was dead in the water.

- - Tommy was a promoter with his own venue still full of pi$$ and vinegar offering him rematch while JJ was being pilloried in America and having to flee illicitly to France.

It's like U was born yesterday yet again today.

[Ivich]

- - Tommy was a promoter with his own venue still full of pi$$ and vinegar offering him rematch while JJ was being pilloried in America and having to flee illicitly to France.

It's like U was born yesterday yet again today.

After the Johnson fight Burns did not fight again until nearly a year and a half later,and then against Bill Lang in Australia.
There was zero demand for a Johnson rematch.
Burns Arena was not finished until nearly1913.
That year Burns struggled to draw with Arthur Pelkey over 6 rounds!.

It's like U ain't got the brains of a rocking horse.