Bob Foster v Georges Carpentier at175lbs?

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Willie Pep 229;n31507174]

I don't think Greb was at the time popukarvenough to warrant Carpentier crossing the pond for such a fight. Dempsey and Tunney were big money for Carpentier, promoted by Rickard.

In 1922 the best Greb's people could guarantee (Puttsburg promoter) was a 100K and that was fir a Dempsey fight. Don't see how they could pull offva Carpentier fight.

I don't know if Greb was connected to Rickard but while we today think of him as 'great' I don't think Greb could generate enough money to draw the likes of Carpentier to come to America to fight him.

To often people think these missed fights are based on fighters being afraid of a particular opponent. Most often it's about the money nothing more, but boy guys on this forum just love to call great fighters cowards. The word duck is so ******** overused by posters who never research past the statistics and never look at the outside realities of the day.

If you want to understand prize fighting you have to learn America history, and all the players involved not just the fighters. Stats don't tell the whole story, never have.

Immediately after Greb beat Tunney on May23rd 1922Tex Rickard cables Carpentier and his manager with an offer of$150,000 to defend his title against Greb,Carpentier and his manager refused it! Carpentier had fought Ted Kid Lewis12 days earlier the reason given for not fighting Greb was that Carpentier had2 fights already lined up.He didn't Carpentier did not fight again until Sept 24th of that year when he was double crossed in a fix by Siki and lost his title.
On This Day: Harry Greb dishes out one of boxing history's most savage beatings - Boxing News (boxingnewsonline.net)
Thanks for the lecture . lol

I do my research!

[Willie Pep 229]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n31507190]

Immediately after Greb beat Tunney on May23rd 1922Tex Rickard cables Carpentier and his manager with an offer of$150,000 to defend his title against Greb,Carpentier and his manager refused it! Carpentier had fought Ted Kid Lewis12 days earlier the reason given for not fighting Greb was that Carpentier had2 fights already lined up.He didn't Carpentier did not fight again until Sept 24th of that year when he was double crossed in a fix by Siki and lost his title.
On This Day: Harry Greb dishes out one of boxing history's most savage beatings - Boxing News (boxingnewsonline.net)
Thanks for the lecture . lol

I do my research!

So according to your source Carpentier is in Europe not the States in May and has a fight lined up. He fights Lewis in England in early May and then Siki in France in September. Which is about the correct amount of time for a champion to defend, every five months.

So how does that in your mind result in Carpentier avoiding Greb?

Who told you that Carpentier claimed he had two fights set up?

Oh, yea, it was the secondary source you posted. The one entitled, The Most Savage Beating, by Nick Bond. A writer who was in the process of calling Greb great, and who chose to make Carpentier look scared. Written in the early 21st Century no less.

And lets even assume Bond has a primary source where Rickard tells us that was indeed the answer Carpentier gave, "he had two fights lined up." You take that as gospel? Rickard explaining to the press why Carpentier rejected the fight, that's gospel to you?

You jumped all over a secondary source that gave you the opinion you wanted and came to the conclusion that Carpentier was ducking Greb and worst yet that Carpentier was a liar. All based on a secondary history written in the early twenty first century.

Good source, great research! LOL

Like I said many posters just love to claim to be in the know as to which great fighters were actually cowards. I guess Carpentier was a coward since you did your 'research' LOL.

That's not research, that's casual reading. LOL

But wait there's more. That frightened Carpentier four years later crosses the pond to fight a much larger Tunney in 1926, a Tunney who Greb (according to your source) is quoted as saying "Tunney has gotten too big for me I won't fight him."

P.S. Isn't it so much fun to unnecessarily mock the other guy with LOL.

[billeau2]

[QUOTE=Willie Pep 229;n31507237]

So according to your source Carpentier is in Europe not the States in May and has a fight lined up. He fights Lewis in England in early May and then Siki in France in September. Which is about the correct amount of time for a champion to defend, every five months.

So how does that in your mind result in Carpentier avoiding Greb?

Who told you that Carpentier claimed he had two fights set up?

Oh, yea, it was the secondary source you posted. The one entitled, The Most Savage Beating, by Nick Bond. A writer who was in the process of calling Greb great, and who chose to make Carpentier look scared. Written in the early 21st Century no less.

And lets even assume Bond has a primary source where Rickard tells us that was indeed the answer Carpentier gave, "he had two fights lined up." You take that as gospel? Rickard explaining to the press why Carpentier rejected the fight, that's gospel to you?

You jumped all over a secondary source that gave you the opinion you wanted and came to the conclusion that Carpentier was ducking Greb and worst yet that Carpentier was a liar. All based on a secondary history written in the early twenty first century.

Good source, great research! LOL

Like I said many posters just love to claim to be in the know as to which great fighters were actually cowards. I guess Carpentier was a coward since you did your 'research' LOL.

That's not research, that's casual reading. LOL

But wait there's more. That frightened Carpentier four years later crosses the pond to fight a much larger Tunney in 1926, a Tunney who Greb (according to your source) is quoted as saying "Tunney has gotten too big for me I won't fight him."

P.S. Isn't it so much fun to unnecessarily mock the other guy with LOL.

yeah the charactrization of Coward is wrong... and Tunney is as scarey as Greb... round aerrr bout.

[billeau2]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n31507190]

Immediately after Greb beat Tunney on May23rd 1922Tex Rickard cables Carpentier and his manager with an offer of$150,000 to defend his title against Greb,Carpentier and his manager refused it! Carpentier had fought Ted Kid Lewis12 days earlier the reason given for not fighting Greb was that Carpentier had2 fights already lined up.He didn't Carpentier did not fight again until Sept 24th of that year when he was double crossed in a fix by Siki and lost his title.
On This Day: Harry Greb dishes out one of boxing history's most savage beatings - Boxing News (boxingnewsonline.net)
Thanks for the lecture . lol

I do my research!

There is some confusion as I never posted anything about Carpentier's alleged popularity. This was a response to something I posted by Pep. But research, or not, drawing any solid conclusions regarding Carpentier's reluctance to fight Greb, one is on shakey ground. There are many possible reasons why Carpentier may not have wanted the fight.

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Willie Pep 229;n31507237]

So according to your source Carpentier is in Europe not the States in May and has a fight lined up. He fights Lewis in England in early May and then Siki in France in September. Which is about the correct amount of time for a champion to defend, every five months.

So how does that in your mind result in Carpentier avoiding Greb?

Who told you that Carpentier claimed he had two fights set up?

Oh, yea, it was the secondary source you posted. The one entitled, The Most Savage Beating, by Nick Bond. A writer who was in the process of calling Greb great, and who chose to make Carpentier look scared. Written in the early 21st Century no less.

And lets even assume Bond has a primary source where Rickard tells us that was indeed the answer Carpentier gave, "he had two fights lined up." You take that as gospel? Rickard explaining to the press why Carpentier rejected the fight, that's gospel to you?

You jumped all over a secondary source that gave you the opinion you wanted and came to the conclusion that Carpentier was ducking Greb and worst yet that Carpentier was a liar. All based on a secondary history written in the early twenty first century.

Good source, great research! LOL

Like I said many posters just love to claim to be in the know as to which great fighters were actually cowards. I guess Carpentier was a coward since you did your 'research' LOL.

That's not research, that's casual reading. LOL

But wait there's more. That frightened Carpentier four years later crosses the pond to fight a much larger Tunney in 1926, a Tunney who Greb (according to your source) is quoted as saying "Tunney has gotten too big for me I won't fight him."

P.S. Isn't it so much fun to unnecessarily mock the other guy with LOL.

You are butt hurt because your excuse that Greb wouldnt draw enough money to justify Carpentier risking a defence against him has been exposed as BS.Carpentier was offered $150,000 to defend against Greb and turned it down that's the bottom line. Now show me where Carpentier received that for defending against Siki I never once said Carpentier was frightened or a coward so stop being an ass.Carpentier was washed up when he fought Tunney, it was late cash out and if you had read Tunney's account of the fight you would know why the Frenchman took the fight and the Gibbons one for which he received nearly 2000,000 francs.
Casual reading? I know how much Carpentier got for those fights where he trained for them and in what condition he was in.You want to belittle my sources because your snotty little nose has been put out of joint.You tried to down play my knowledge and motives and it came back to bite you in your smug ass! One of my sources is Georges Carpentier.
Carpentier was a liar ,his excuse for losing to Tunney was he was low blowed.
His excuse for defending against Siki was he was the only opponent who came into question That's a lie he had already been challenged by Greb multiple times Siki was a nobody. Carpentier's excuse for taking the fight was he wanted to fight in Paris one more time.He said he was kept out of the negotiations for the fight and was unaware that Deschamps had agreed that Carpentier would carry Siki for a few rounds and then "ko" him with a soft fake punch. Only after the fight was signed .Carpentier said he only agreed to the fake because he was ,"not in normal or physical trim." The fim rights had been bought and to make them profitable the film company insisted on a minimum of 4 rds of footage.Carpentier received 100,000 francs for the fight his smallest purse for years! Carpentier later justified the fake fight by saying he was doing the French public a favour by letting them see him in action one last time.Do you believe that? Carpentier also said he was defending his middleweight championship of the world when he fought Siki,thats another lie.He was never middleweight worlds champion and even if he had been he was over the weight for a middleweight defence.
According to Carpentier Niles was not intererested in a fight with him,yet his manager gave an upcoming fight with Niles as the reason Carpentier would not be able to fight Greb! Which one is telling the truth Carpentier or Deschamps?
What would a fight with Niles be worth?
Would it match the $150,000 Rickard offered them to fight Greb?

13 Jun 1922 - CARPENTIER V. GREB. - Trove (nla.gov.au)

Here's another source, the NY TImes

Rickard to Offer $150,000 For Greb-Carpentier Bout - The New York Times (nytimes.com)


And another.

Merced Sun-Star 25 May 1922 — California Digital Newspaper Collection (ucr.edu)
And another.

Pittsburgh Boxing: A Pictorial History


2October2015 ·
HARRY GREB, after beating Gene Tunney, won the American Light-Heavyweight championship. The World Light-Heavyweight championship was held by Georges Carpentier, whose brain trust wanted no part of Greb's game. Greb had been pursuing Carpentier for a title shot for years to no avail, nor would he have any luck in securing a title bout with Carpentier's successor Battling Siki, who also felt it wise to steer clear of Greb

This is a ringside account of the Carpentier v Loughran fight in which Carpentier says he Loughran "just about won".Carpentier made no mention of being knocked down by Loughran .

"Had Tommy relied upon his boxing skill to pull him through, had he been satisfied to simply defend himself as he tried to peck the Frenchmen to piece, he would have left the ring a beaten man. But the Philadelphia ace did no such thing. On the contrary, he carried the bout to his foeman, he smashed away at him with his right, he outguessed him, he outgeneraled him and last, but by no means least, he knocked him down for the count of nine."

Loughran scored the knockdown in the 7th round with a right hand to the jaw. Loughran also had a big 10th round, in which he pummeled Carpentier, and had him reeling and bleeding from the mouth. Carpentier staggered Loughran with a left hook in the 3rd round, which also cut him under the right eye. Loughran fought with his left hand up in the bout, protecting against the power reputation of Carpentier's right hand. Carpentier did his best work with the left hand in the bout.

Source: Philadelphia Inquirer

Carpentier said he and Gibbons ,"shared the honours in their fight more or less evenly" That he sprained his ankle in the 3 rds round and that the fight was over 10 rds

Here is a ringside account.

• Popular verdict - a win for Gibbons (World Almanac)
• From the Chicago Tribune (Bob Soderman): Gibbons's win was decisive. Both the Tribune and the New York Times credited Tommy with winning every round. Carpenter was very brave to withstand the beating he received. He only landed his vaunted right full on Gibbons's jaw once, in the fourth round. This punch definitely stunned Gibbons but Carpentier failed to follow up on his temporary advantage. Carpentier twisted an ankle in round nine. In the tenth a Gibbons punch opened a cut over Carpentier's right eye, and "he was now a sorry sight indeed." If Gibbons had been more forceful, he probably would have stopped his opponent in the 9th or 10th rounds, but like his brother Mike he was cautious when he had a fight well in hand, and took no unnecessary chances

Carpentier's auto biography is full of lies.Why dont you read it and educate yourself?

I'll match my boxing knowledge against yours any day of the week and twice on Sundays.I'm courteous to those who are courteous to me so you can drop the faux sarcasm.However if you want to play rough ,you come full ahead! I'll bury you!

[Willie Pep 229]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n31507547]

You are butt hurt because your excuse that Greb wouldnt draw enough money to justify Carpentier risking a defence against him has been exposed as BS.Carpentier was offered $150,000 to defend against Greb and turned it down that's the bottom line. Now show me where Carpentier received that for defending against Siki I never once said Carpentier was frightened or a coward so stop being an ass.Carpentier was washed up when he fought Tunney, it was late cash out and if you had read Tunney's account of the fight you would know why the Frenchman took the fight and the Gibbons one for which he received nearly 2000,000 francs.
Casual reading? I know how much Carpentier got for those fights where he trained for them and in what condition he was in.You want to belittle my sources because your snotty little nose has been put out of joint.You tried to down play my knowledge and motives and it came back to bite you in your smug ass! One of my sources is Georges Carpentier.
Carpentier was a liar ,his excuse for losing to Tunney was he was low blowed.
His excuse for defending against Siki was he was the only opponent who came into question That's a lie he had already been challenged by Greb multiple times Siki was a nobody. Carpentier's excuse for taking the fight was he wanted to fight in Paris one more time.He said he was kept out of the negotiations for the fight and was unaware that Deschamps had agreed that Carpentier would carry Siki for a few rounds and then "ko" him with a soft fake punch. Only after the fight was signed .Carpentier said he only agreed to the fake because he was ,"not in normal or physical trim." The fim rights had been bought and to make them profitable the film company insisted on a minimum of 4 rds of footage.Carpentier received 100,000 francs for the fight his smallest purse for years! Carpentier later justified the fake fight by saying he was doing the French public a favour by letting them see him in action one last time.Do you believe that? Carpentier also said he was defending his middleweight championship of the world when he fought Siki,thats another lie.He was never middleweight worlds champion and even if he had been he was over the weight for a middleweight defence.
According to Carpentier Niles was not intererested in a fight with him,yet his manager gave an upcoming fight with Niles as the reason Carpentier would not be able to fight Greb! Which one is telling the truth Carpentier or Deschamps?
What would a fight with Niles be worth?
Would it match the $150,000 Rickard offered them to fight Greb?

13 Jun 1922 - CARPENTIER V. GREB. - Trove (nla.gov.au)

Here's another source, the NY TImes

Rickard to Offer $150,000 For Greb-Carpentier Bout - The New York Times (nytimes.com)


And another.

Merced Sun-Star 25 May 1922 — California Digital Newspaper Collection (ucr.edu)
And another.

Pittsburgh Boxing: A Pictorial History


2October2015 ·
HARRY GREB, after beating Gene Tunney, won the American Light-Heavyweight championship. The World Light-Heavyweight championship was held by Georges Carpentier, whose brain trust wanted no part of Greb's game. Greb had been pursuing Carpentier for a title shot for years to no avail, nor would he have any luck in securing a title bout with Carpentier's successor Battling Siki, who also felt it wise to steer clear of Greb

This is a ringside account of the Carpentier v Loughran fight in which Carpentier says he Loughran "just about won".Carpentier made no mention of being knocked down by Loughran .

"Had Tommy relied upon his boxing skill to pull him through, had he been satisfied to simply defend himself as he tried to peck the Frenchmen to piece, he would have left the ring a beaten man. But the Philadelphia ace did no such thing. On the contrary, he carried the bout to his foeman, he smashed away at him with his right, he outguessed him, he outgeneraled him and last, but by no means least, he knocked him down for the count of nine."

Loughran scored the knockdown in the 7th round with a right hand to the jaw. Loughran also had a big 10th round, in which he pummeled Carpentier, and had him reeling and bleeding from the mouth. Carpentier staggered Loughran with a left hook in the 3rd round, which also cut him under the right eye. Loughran fought with his left hand up in the bout, protecting against the power reputation of Carpentier's right hand. Carpentier did his best work with the left hand in the bout.

Source: Philadelphia Inquirer

Carpentier said he and Gibbons ,"shared the honours in their fight more or less evenly" That he sprained his ankle in the 3 rds round and that the fight was over 10 rds

Here is a ringside account.

• Popular verdict - a win for Gibbons (World Almanac)
• From the Chicago Tribune (Bob Soderman): Gibbons's win was decisive. Both the Tribune and the New York Times credited Tommy with winning every round. Carpenter was very brave to withstand the beating he received. He only landed his vaunted right full on Gibbons's jaw once, in the fourth round. This punch definitely stunned Gibbons but Carpentier failed to follow up on his temporary advantage. Carpentier twisted an ankle in round nine. In the tenth a Gibbons punch opened a cut over Carpentier's right eye, and "he was now a sorry sight indeed." If Gibbons had been more forceful, he probably would have stopped his opponent in the 9th or 10th rounds, but like his brother Mike he was cautious when he had a fight well in hand, and took no unnecessary chances

Carpentier's auto biography is full of lies.Why dont you read it and educate yourself?

I'll match my boxing knowledge against yours any day of the week and twice on Sundays.I'm courteous to those who are courteous to me so you can drop the faux sarcasm.However if you want to play rough ,you come full ahead! I'll bury you!

You win Carpentier must be a liar and a coward.

Research, eh, you're cut and paste historian who repeats CWs with no insight. You buy into every cliché or bias statement without bothering to evaluate the speaker's motives.

Why would you post a ringside account of the Gibbons fight or cut and paste how poorly Carpentier did against Gibbons and Tunney? Off task statements don't make your argument stronger it just fills up the page with typing, I guess to disguise the absense of analysis.

It's easy to disparage a dead man. Where did I hear that?

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Willie Pep 229;n31507610]

You win Carpentier must be a liar and a coward.

Research, eh, you're cut and paste historian who repeats CWs with no insight. You buy into every cliché or bias statement without bothering to evaluate the speaker's motives.

Why would you post a ringside account of the Gibbons fight or cut and paste how poorly Carpentier did against Gibbons and Tunney? Off task statements don't make your argument stronger it just fills up the page with typing, I guess to disguise the absense of analysis.

It's easy to disparage a dead man. Where did I hear that?

I'm not a historian and have never claimed to be one.
I posted the ringside accounts to compare them to Carpentier's "version "of what happened.and they are totally at odds with what he wrote.
I should have thought anyone with half a brain would have realised why I posted them?
Carpentier lied when he said the Gibbons fight was basically a draw, he was convincingly whipped . He lied when he said that after the Dempsey fight ,that with his last remaining strength he forced himself off the canvas to prevent Dempsey picking him up after the ko.Film shows that is exactly what Dempsey did.
Jack Dempsey vs Georges Carpentier (02.07.1921) - YouTube
He lied by omission when he neglected to mention that Loughran floored him and Loughran ,"just about won".
I know more about Carpentier than you, and you don't like it do you.
Carpentier was a liar .but he was not a coward and I never said or implied he was,that's just you trying to score a silly point.

Yes its easy to disparage a dead man and without proof I would never do it! However in this case I have proof , and being dead does not mean that you were not a liar when you were alive!
Carpentier stands condemned out of his own mouth , there is no argument about that!
Just as there is no argument you were beaten up in this debate by me,if it had been a fight the referee would have rescued you a few rounds ago"! You offered NOTHING just some petty sarcasm.Well fella, you are well and truly done!BYE!

[Willie Pep 229]

[QUOTE=Ivich;n31507667]

I'm not a historian and have never claimed to be one.
I posted the ringside accounts to compare them to Carpentier's "version "of what happened.and they are totally at odds with what he wrote.
I should have thought anyone with half a brain would have realised why I posted them?
Carpentier lied when he said the Gibbons fight was basically a draw, he was convincingly whipped . He lied when he said that after the Dempsey fight ,that with his last remaining strength he forced himself off the canvas to prevent Dempsey picking him up after the ko.Film shows that is exactly what Dempsey did.
Jack Dempsey vs Georges Carpentier (02.07.1921) - YouTube
He lied by omission when he neglected to mention that Loughran floored him and Loughran ,"just about won".
I know more about Carpentier than you, and you don't like it do you.
Carpentier was a liar .but he was not a coward and I never said or implied he was,that's just you trying to score a silly point.

Yes its easy to disparage a dead man and without proof I would never do it! However in this case I have proof , and being dead does not mean that you were not a liar when you were alive!
Carpentier stands condemned out of his own mouth , there is no argument about that!
Just as there is no argument you were beaten up in this debate by me,if it had been a fight the referee would have rescued you a few rounds ago"! You offered NOTHING just some petty sarcasm.Well fella, you are well and truly done!BYE!

Na, I figured you out . . . You're a "Tommy" and you just don't like the "Gallant Frog" - so you burn up all this energy just to bad mouth a dead Frenchman calling him a liar snd a coward.

The man fought Dempsey, Tunney, and Gibbons but you have convinced yourself he ducked Greb. All based on JUST ONE source, Rickard stating his offer has been rejected. Nothing more.

Nothing else you have posted is relevant to your claim that Carpentier ducked Greb.

[Ivich]

[QUOTE=Willie Pep 229;n31507728]

Na, I figured you out . . . You're a "Tommy" and you just don't like the "Gallant Frog" - so you burn up all this energy just to bad mouth a dead Frenchman calling him a liar snd a coward.

The man fought Dempsey, Tunney, and Gibbons but you have convinced yourself he ducked Greb. All based on JUST ONE source, Rickard stating his offer has been rejected. Nothing more.

Nothing else you have posted is relevant to your claim that Carpentier ducked Greb.

Based on 4 sources .Are you going to continue calling Carpentier a coward.? I haven't done so the man won medals fpr gallantry.in WW1.He took sustained beatings from several men Klaus,Gibbons,Loughran and Tunney to name just 4.
Nothing wrong with his courage.But plenty wrong with you Mr Saddo.
Ive burned no energy on my key board .I've dug out 3 fence post holes and concreted them in today, painted them and taken the dogs out for a walk.
The thing that isnt relevant here is you!
I couldn't care less where a person comes from or what nationality they are ,my Father's family come from Germany and my Mother's from Denmark,and you come from Fantasy Island .!

[edgarg]

Carpentier trained in private to disguise how small he was compared to Dempsey.I think him a massively overated champion.

I think you're wrong. Why base your opinion on him by Dempsey.. Dempsey was only 1.5 inches taller and maybe 7-8 lbs heavier Carpentier, was near career end..

He was a pro at 14, was French and European Welter ,Middle, LH and Heavyweight Champ by age 19. a phenomenon.. A really excellent boxer, highly skilled, with a KO punch. Stretched out all the top British Heavies in a minute or two at 18 years old.. Had reasonable longevity. Foster was not nearly as good a boxer had only his height and that very long armed left hook. He fought in weak era..Best opponents were washed up former welters and middles When he won the title from **** Tiger Tiger was 40, 14 years older, on the skids, 5'7" shorter by 8 inches shorter reach by 7 inches at the end of his career, already sick and died just over 2 years later.

I pick class and KO power of Carpentier.