Marciano and his management

[Ivich]

I don't dismiss them, but I do know there are occasions where they get it wrong. For all of the press that reported on that fight, did every single one of them report it the same way? They sure don't in modern era boxing, so why would they back then? It's easy to cherry pick the sources that back up your point of view. I just gave you a clear example of how ****ell fouled him several times. Perhaps Rocky was just returning the favor? I've read a lot of things about Rocky, but not that he was a dirty fighter the way you are trying to portray him. I do agree with some of the observations you've made about him. He was a frugal guy and a lot of his peers and friends thought he was a cheapskate, but those were also guys who blew their fortunes throwing their money around. Willie Pep died broke, maybe he wasn't the best guy to question Rocky's spending habits?

No ,you gave me a clear example of your interpretation of what ****ell was doing.
No report I've read says that was so.Would you like to produce one? If Im cherry picking it will be easy for you to produce opposite opinions won't it? While you're at it, produce some ringside reports that disagreed with the ones I posted.Then you will at least have the semblance of a riposte to my verified ringside quotes.Take your time I'm here until Monday then I'm in DR.
.At the moment you have nothing but your own determination to deny what is patently self evident!
I'm trying to portray Marciano as nothing ,I'm just responding to Left Hook who demanded evidence that Marciano fouled in some fights ,and I've provided three certified instances from eye witness boxing writers ,of instances of when he did.
If that annoys you and the other two posters who refuse to accept reality ,then sorry, that's just too bad!

[GhostofDempsey]

No ,you gave me a clear example of your interpretation of what ****ell was doing.
No report I've read says that was so.Would you like to produce one? If Im cherry picking it will be easy for you to produce opposite opinions won't it? While you're at it, produce some ringside reports that disagreed with the ones I posted.Then you will at least have the semblance of a riposte to my verified ringside quotes.Take your time I'm here until Monday then I'm in DR.
.At the moment you have nothing but your own determination to deny what is patently self evident!
I'm trying to portray Marciano as nothing ,I'm just responding to Left Hook who demanded evidence that Marciano fouled in some fights ,and I've provided three certified instances from eye witness boxing writers ,of instances of when he did.
If that annoys you and the other two posters who refuse to accept reality ,then sorry, that's just too bad!

My interpretation? Buddy, it's clear as day, round 3, watch it for yourself. ****ell lunges into Rocky's face head first! It's not my interpretation, it's there for any one of you to view for yourselves. You're not providing any context when you try to claim Rocky was a dirty fighter. Hitting Moore after the bell? How long after? Was it in fact a cheap shot or a punch thrown at the bell? Was Rocky merely retaliating against ****ell for his dirty tactics? Seems that way to me.

[The Old LefHook]

Everyone can see. Rocky fought so cleanly it brings tears to one's eyes. The Rock had galoot-bane in either mitt. ****ell himself would be a top contender today, or world champ. He and Fury could bump soft bodies for the belt.

[them_apples]

No... you don't need to speak for what I would say. Some fighters mugged people, robbed them, became good people afterwards... some fighters were always predators, it depends on the fighter...which is why one has to qualify statements like the one you made. I never tried to excuse Rocky's behavior, you think I did because you are a combative tyro who thinks he is wise because he is old... You set up that dichotomy because it is the way you operate, not me lol.

Liston was a career criminal, and people like you would just as soon let that be the end of it. Tyson= rapist, Marchgiano= Miser/mugger Liston= Thief etc etc... you see the world Black and White. That is plain idiocy. There is no harm in looking at fighters as complex human beings that react to situations, it is not excusing their behavior at all...

Grow up. stop fitting the whole big wide world in your own small box of judgements...

He didn’t respond to me but he was asking why other fighters didn’t become muggers after going through what Rocky did.

funny thing is, a lot of them WERE muggers just like him. Boxing was full of those type and you were an anomaly if you weren’t. They tried selling Rocky as a role model and loved the fact that he could play it well. Listen to him talk on TV he’s acting half the time. Ill go even further and say poor kids in general became muggers. I don’t think he’s any different than anyone else in boxing. According to any biography ive read.

Ray Leonard got the same treatment, charming, married with kids……..vicious coke addiction, privately owned condo for a getaway every night with hookers (for years) total opposite of the image the media sold. All that would explain his left hook to the body one of the nastiest in the business

[edgarg]

We are discussing Marciano not Liston.I think Marciano was a good man ,that doesn't mean he wasn't a miser,he was if you have a problem with that I suggest you avoid reading any biographies of him.I don't fit people into boxes well not unless they are fan boys like yourself,they are only too easy to spot.

Yes he was a good man. He was as good as the Mafia allowed him to be. He WAS a miser, his friends described seeing him rolling up cash in preserve jars but were not allowed to see where he buried them . I'm sure that his wife knew and got it all, but still, people were digging all over his property without any success for many years..

What's important for me is that he was deeply involved with the Mafia, with whose members he grew up, and with whom he always was around. He was a completely manufactured champion, through careful selection, paid off refs and judges, and his "manager" Al Weill, to whom he had to pay 50% because Al had to divvy up with "you know who". .For such a famous Manager of such a famous fighter there is almost NO WIKI info under his name.

His miserliness finally killed him. He waited to bum a lift from some appearance he gave,, from a "friend" Frankie Farrell, the son of IOWA Mob Boss Louis Fratto, whose brother Frankie "one ear" was a Mob hit man. subsidiary to the Luciano Mob.

His boxing skills were NIL his rough-house, back-lans skills were 100%. How did he get away with his blatant and continuous fouls. Only ONE way. It was fixed.
He later boxed some "exhibitions" in Mexico, because, as he said , he didn't have to give Weill 50%.

As for his women, he could have worn his penis down to a stub for all I cared. Boxing champions seem to think they live on Cloud 9. Other good boxers too of course.

My best example of top quality boxers as people, are Young Stribling, Cleveland Williams and Benny Leonard.

[them_apples]

Yes he was a good man. He was as good as the Mafia allowed him to be. He WAS a miser, his friends described seeing him rolling up cash in preserve jars but were not allowed to see where he buried them . I'm sure that his wife knew and got it all, but still, people were digging all over his property without any success for many years..

What's important for me is that he was deeply involved with the Mafia, with whose members he grew up, and with whom he always was around. He was a completely manufactured champion, through careful selection, paid off refs and judges, and his "manager" Al Weill, to whom he had to pay 50% because Al had to divvy up with "you know who". .For such a famous Manager of such a famous fighter there is almost NO WIKI info under his name.

His miserliness finally killed him. He waited to bum a lift from some appearance he gave,, from a "friend" Frankie Farrell, the son of IOWA Mob Boss Louis Fratto, whose brother Frankie "one ear" was a Mob hit man. subsidiary to the Luciano Mob.

His boxing skills were NIL his rough-house, back-lans skills were 100%. How did he get away with his blatant and continuous fouls. Only ONE way. It was fixed.
He later boxed some "exhibitions" in Mexico, because, as he said , he didn't have to give Weill 50%.

As for his women, he could have worn his ***** down to a stub for all I cared. Boxing champions seem to think they live on Cloud 9. Other good boxers too of course.

My best example of top quality boxers as people, are Young Stribling, Cleveland Williams and Benny Leonard.

he wasn’t brought up from day one and manufactured. Where did you read that? Al Weill pissed him off for many reasons. The first was writing Rocky himself off. Same goes for his trainers. Nobody thought he had any talent. I would agree for sure once he was somebody he was protected. All the fixed fights though, you don’t know that!

then, the part about him knowing everyone in the Mafia. Is a very good point and is a likely point to his character. Which is badass, by the way - lest we forget.

he wasn’t blatantly fouling though or anything of that matter. I never heard of this until this thread. Or saw it.

[The Old LefHook]

Edgarg, you are completely under the spell of an illusion. You just keep harping that Marciano is a dirty fighter, when in fact he was pretty clean for being so rough. You must be a complete churl wipe whose pea-mind is already ineluctably made up, in spite of evidence.

[billeau2]

We are discussing Marciano not Liston.I think Marciano was a good man ,that doesn't mean he wasn't a miser,he was if you have a problem with that I suggest you avoid reading any biographies of him.I don't fit people into boxes well not unless they are fan boys like yourself,they are only too easy to spot.

See? you came into this section... with your appeals to authority... "so and so wrote it look it up!" and expected people to just accept that level of understanding. So now you are bitter and desperate to try to bring any issue back to your opinion. You were gonna come into Dodge and teach people a lesson! Lol. No diplomacy... no dialogue just your opinion and the wreckage of bodies that did not abide.... How did that work for you mate?

I could not give two shiats what you think of Marciano... or what you believe I think about him... You must be slow because I not only never told you I was a fan, I also corrected you a number of times on this account. MY OPINIONS about MARCIANO were never relevant to the issue lol. But alas, that also goes over your head my friend. I used Liston as an example... I mean you use those books you read to remember isolated factoids and to make a ridiculous appeal to authority but apparently are incapable of Deductive reasoning from those facts to comprehend the big picture.

The only thing easy to spot are blovating Blowhards who come in here and think they can sprout off nonsense and be respected... Doesn't play here Bub... Try that shiat in the general section...

[billeau2]

All my favorite boxers are either American,Panamanian , or Latino, not a Brit on there! Nice try though!
You're not giving context ,you're making excuses for character traits.As such you are an apologist
Marciano was a young man in the Army when he mugged a civilian he was convicted and court martialled and as a result did not go with his unit when the went to France going instead to the stockade.
He paid the price for his actions and, as far as anybody knows never repeated the offence.As to his notorious money habits he had them as a young man running the streets with Allie Colombo ,and retained them right until his tragic death.If you think he was obsessive about being poor,well why wasnt Colombo who was poorer than Marciano all his life?
Why Marciano had this phobic obsession is a different kettle of fish. WHAT WE ARE DISCUSSING IS DID HE HAVE THEM? AND THE ANSWER IS YES!
It's really that simple and all the embroidered spin and obfuscation in the world will not change that!

What you are attempting to do is akin to my stating," Marciano cut easily",and you replying well he had tender skin."Which is true, but does not in anyway change the fact that ,"he cut easily".

I only get personal with posters who disrespect me first.look back and you'll see that is the case.

Try? for what? Whats the contest we are entered into? remind me please? Ha ha lol... Ok. Yeah I am just that guy who Marciano could do no wrong with... You can tell by my previous posting history right? All those Marciano threads I made.... Oh wait...

You can try to weasel out all you like Bub... You came in here to take names and show how smart you are and it didn't work out. Bottom line. Marciano mugged a fem... Marciano hit someone on the kidney... Marciano stopped his mum from perfecting the first recipe for chopped liver, thus making my people the Deli Kings! When the weather is bad? I shake a fist and blame Marchgiano!!

It doesn't matter what I "think." You know those facts you like so much? they have a context. I never made a valued Judgement about Marciano being a good, or bad man... show me if I did. I simply stated the circumstances surrounding his behavior. Do you understand this? Because it just blew you out of the water. Where did I:

1. Claim Marciano was a good/bad man?
2. Claim to be a fan of Marciano?

Show me...

No its not a matter of IF he did the things you claim and which I never refuted... You just want an appeal to authority and to win arguments lol!! What ann idiot you are... We read books and take in facts to understand WHY people did things. NOt to try to impress others that you read an account of something a fighter did. Who cares? Your in a section where people take information and work with it.... make observations... Its not a trivia contest tp prove you know a fact from source material many of us have read ourselves...

You have not earned any respect. Earn it and it will be given. in your last example you say "Marciano cut easy" I guess to you everyone should then say "Wow!!" Incredible deduction, wow! sixty plus years of reading factoids, kindly tell us other such enlightening tidbits!" See? you admit it: you don't want a dialogue you want people to shut up and appreciate your insights... SORRY BUB! Provide one that merits that response and you will get it lol. Respect is earned and not given...Something I trained my two boys to understand from an early age.

[billeau2]

You shoulder try to actually watch the highlights of that fight. I can count several instances where ****ell fouls Rocky. Blatant head ramming, shoving, punches that are questionably low. Rocky narrates this highlight reel, and in Round 3 clearly gets head butted in the face by Don, he even mentions it. So you're again choosing a side and willing to die on that hill by newspaper accounts alone, when film footage clearly tells another side of the story.

How dare you challenge the grand poo pa! His tin throne shakes from your insolence! He read it! and it must be so! Film? hummmmmphhhp!!!!!!