Marciano and his management

[Ivich]

1. It is a kind of fact. It is a sentiment. It has limits, and certainly Marciano is not put into a discussion typically, when discussing the formal attributes of a great heavyweight... But There are those in the boxing community that have held that belief, in the past particularly. There are also those who claimed he was a product of a weak era and would get decimated... You see? there are a range of opinions and the fact is, if someone said "Vlad Klitsko is considered one of the best heavyweights by many trainers" I would say: "Im not so sure of that..."

Its not a matter of "acceptance." When you read enough sources, sometimes there are contrarians, there are those with a unique POV, and there are commonly held opinions. All I have maintained is that there are those, who are highly regarded, that hold that view...

I don't dispute Marciano's financial habits Ivich. My point was to go deeper and understand the basis for that behavior... These behaviors do not occur in a vacuum, there are reasons for why Marciano behaved like this and as you often try to point out... these reasons are documented. The Sports Illustrated article on Marciano was very well done and goes into his thinking.

You talk about sources... I agree, its a reason why I pursued higher education... But part of using sources is understanding the big picture. Liston was exceptional... One reason? Yeah he had some issues lol, but he was chronically abused by a deadbeat dad, and had 16 siblings! So when Liston was so kind to children and appreciative to those who helped him, to me that means he was special. He had to overcome those conditions and nobody totally escapes such treatment. YOu understand the point about the big picture here? Let me spell it out: If someone said "Liston was a bully" it would be like saying "Marciano was stingy." There is more to the story...right?

During Marciano's time many people carried "slugs" fake coins to feed, or a slug on a device to pull out... That common knowledge lol! I don't know anyone as my birth was in 1964...people still used slugs but they had already made it more difficult.

I made a statement calling Marciano a miser and there are literally dozens of anecdotes saying he was just that! I didn't say why he as a miser ,just that he was one. One opinion ,that he was a miser is beyond dispute.Why he was is just your amateur supposition ,]

If I related the story of his court martial and dishonorable discharge from the Pioneer Corps
you would say he beat up that civilian because he had an overwhelming need to possess his wallet and the few bucks in it.This need was a result of his por upbringing! LOL.
Well tell me when Marciano ever went without a meal or had to stay in because he didn't have shoes ,or clothes to wear . Tell me why the thousands of other fighters from lowly backgrounds didn't all mug people and become misers?

[them_apples]

I made a statement calling Marciano a miser and there are literally dozens of anecdotes saying he was just that! I didn't say why he as a miser ,just that he was one. One opinion ,that he was a miser is beyond dispute.Why he was is just your amateur supposition ,]

If I related the story of his court martial and dishonorable discharge from the Pioneer Corps
you would say he beat up that civilian because he had an overwhelming need to possess his wallet and the few bucks in it.This need was a result of his por upbringing! LOL.
Well tell me when Marciano ever went without a meal or had to stay in because he didn't have shoes ,or clothes to wear . Tell me why the thousands of other fighters from lowly backgrounds didn't all mug people and become misers?

I won’t dispute him being considered a Miser. Once again though, in the bold:

The reason nobody can tell you this is because nobody knows! How would they? Half of them probably were muggers for all we know. Half of them would ‘probably’ be convicted of sexual assault or **** as well if they were around today. The general sentiment in the day was if a girl was out looking for it then she deserved to get it. Serving girls weren't viewed in the same light as a married woman. (an example of differences of the era).

my biggest fear is throwing labels on everything and assumptions based on very limited knowledge (goes for everyone).

I can tell you this much, of the 3 different Ali books I’ve read on his life, each one painted a fairly unique and different picture of the man. To have only read one book would leave me far more ignorant than the version of me that read 3. However, it would be easy to go on here and state everything I read from one book as fact. The same would go for Napolean, one book describes his birth circumstances as a fact, the other claims is likely a myth.

[billeau2]

Yeah ,after watching, participating, reading, about the sport for 63 years,I'm a casual . Cheers Mr Fan Boy . Ever heard that saying two wrongs don't make a right? Well two doughtnuts don't make a picnic either!

You just don't get it... From cong**** to your 63 years... And Ill pat myself on the back for my 40 plus years teaching martial arts, and everyone should be proud of their things BUT, you get judged by what you post! Nobody really knows anyone until they meet...You raise a red flag when you make comments that do not reflect wisdom and understanding, its that simple. Factoids are great... and we should all be allowed to wear our "fan" hats for the fighters we enjoy... I can know that when discussing James Toney (for example) there is no excuse for what Jones did to him, and I should also be allowed in another context to just be a fan.

When you make specific allegations against Marciano as being a dirty fighter it is just irresponsible not to consider the general state of the division and fighters at the time... Its nothing personal. Casuals always always are ready to explain/excuse away everything they need to about a particular fighter... but never are consistent and think about if these same excuses apply generally, or not. So for example, when Lewis fought Klitsko, the fact is, both men were not prepared for the fight. Klitsko was not training for Lewis and Lewis was training for a very very weak opponent and was out of shape... Casuals for Vitalie only state Vitalie's point of view coming into the fight, and vice versa.

[billeau2]

Fan Boy.Don't let truth get in the way of your hero worship. If Rocky were alive today he would have the cleanest anus in the US! LOL

Yeah and Brits hating on American fighters nothing new with that occasional character trait either... People who give a context for things are defending Marciano now. When you post things and context is demanded you get personal... Bottom line. To you every situation is a bunch of isolated facts with no context needed.

[billeau2]

I made a statement calling Marciano a miser and there are literally dozens of anecdotes saying he was just that! I didn't say why he as a miser ,just that he was one. One opinion ,that he was a miser is beyond dispute.Why he was is just your amateur supposition ,]

If I related the story of his court martial and dishonorable discharge from the Pioneer Corps
you would say he beat up that civilian because he had an overwhelming need to possess his wallet and the few bucks in it.This need was a result of his por upbringing! LOL.
Well tell me when Marciano ever went without a meal or had to stay in because he didn't have shoes ,or clothes to wear . Tell me why the thousands of other fighters from lowly backgrounds didn't all mug people and become misers?

No... you don't need to speak for what I would say. Some fighters mugged people, robbed them, became good people afterwards... some fighters were always predators, it depends on the fighter...which is why one has to qualify statements like the one you made. I never tried to excuse Rocky's behavior, you think I did because you are a combative tyro who thinks he is wise because he is old... You set up that dichotomy because it is the way you operate, not me lol.

Liston was a career criminal, and people like you would just as soon let that be the end of it. Tyson= rapist, Marchgiano= Miser/mugger Liston= Thief etc etc... you see the world Black and White. That is plain idiocy. There is no harm in looking at fighters as complex human beings that react to situations, it is not excusing their behavior at all...

Grow up. stop fitting the whole big wide world in your own small box of judgements...

[Ivich]

No... you don't need to speak for what I would say. Some fighters mugged people, robbed them, became good people afterwards... some fighters were always predators, it depends on the fighter...which is why one has to qualify statements like the one you made. I never tried to excuse Rocky's behavior, you think I did because you are a combative tyro who thinks he is wise because he is old... You set up that dichotomy because it is the way you operate, not me lol.

Liston was a career criminal, and people like you would just as soon let that be the end of it. Tyson= rapist, Marchgiano= Miser/mugger Liston= Thief etc etc... you see the world Black and White. That is plain idiocy. There is no harm in looking at fighters as complex human beings that react to situations, it is not excusing their behavior at all...

Grow up. stop fitting the whole big wide world in your own small box of judgements...

We are discussing Marciano not Liston.I think Marciano was a good man ,that doesn't mean he wasn't a miser,he was if you have a problem with that I suggest you avoid reading any biographies of him.I don't fit people into boxes well not unless they are fan boys like yourself,they are only too easy to spot.

[Ivich]

Yeah and Brits hating on American fighters nothing new with that occasional character trait either... People who give a context for things are defending Marciano now. When you post things and context is demanded you get personal... Bottom line. To you every situation is a bunch of isolated facts with no context needed.

All my favorite boxers are either American,Panamanian , or Latino, not a Brit on there! Nice try though!
You're not giving context ,you're making excuses for character traits.As such you are an apologist
Marciano was a young man in the Army when he mugged a civilian he was convicted and court martialled and as a result did not go with his unit when the went to France going instead to the stockade.
He paid the price for his actions and, as far as anybody knows never repeated the offence.As to his notorious money habits he had them as a young man running the streets with Allie Colombo ,and retained them right until his tragic death.If you think he was obsessive about being poor,well why wasnt Colombo who was poorer than Marciano all his life?
Why Marciano had this phobic obsession is a different kettle of fish. WHAT WE ARE DISCUSSING IS DID HE HAVE THEM? AND THE ANSWER IS YES!
It's really that simple and all the embroidered spin and obfuscation in the world will not change that!

What you are attempting to do is akin to my stating," Marciano cut easily",and you replying well he had tender skin."Which is true, but does not in anyway change the fact that ,"he cut easily".

I only get personal with posters who disrespect me first.look back and you'll see that is the case.

[GhostofDempsey]

He hit Lastarza low several times in their second fight and was deducted points for it.
He hit Moore after the bell.
He hit ****ell low several times ,butted him hit him after the bell and whilst he was on the floor.

• In his dressing room after the fight, ****ell said he got a "raw deal." His manager complained that the referee allowed Marciano to headbutt, hit low and punch after the bell.
• Watch the fight! For more detail read Peter Wilson's report on the fight and his interview with Marciano.Here is an extract from Wilson's ringside report.
• "In the second round Marciano landed a kidney punch".
• "At the end of the third round he landed after the bell."
• "In the next round
• " In the 4th round ducking as usual below the waist,he straightened up so that the top of his head caught and cut Don's forehead causing him the rest of the fight".
• "In the 5th Marciano landed so low that ****ell reeled back into the ropes."
• "He landed low again in the next round,then trapped ****ell on the ropes and hit him three times after the bell."
• " In the 7th round Marciano butted and bored as he had done almost non-stop through out the fight,and landed another low blow at the end of the round."

In case you think this is just journalistic partisanship.

• Here is the report of the New York World Telegram and the Sun
• " Marciano violated practically every rule in the book.he hit after the bell,used his elbows and head at close quarters,several times hit below the belt and once hit ****ell while he was down."
• "If ****ell should get the idea that anything goes inthe American ring short of wielding a knife or pulling a gun you couldn't blame him," Joe Williams.

The Moore fight.End of the 4th round.
"After the bell Marciano throws another punch and Moore stands back and hits him deliberately in the mouth very hard and pushes him furiously away." Peter Wilson .Daily Mirror Ringside.

• life magazine reported: "Trying to knock the challenger out with one punch, the 29-year-old Marciano was over-eager and awkward. He lunged, butted, hit below the belt, on the break and after the bell. Once, he swung so wildly that he missed and slipped clumsily to the canvas. Outboxing the champion and avoiding his blows, LaStarza managed to win four of the first six rounds. In the seventh, Marciano changed his tactics, started aiming at LaStarza's body as well as his head in an attempt to wear the challenger down. "There are loads more but you can educate yourself about them.I think there are very very few boxing historians who would call |Marciano ,"the greatest professional fighter of all time."
• But I'll settle for you naming three!
• GOT ENOUGH EVIDENCE NOW? LOL

You shoulder try to actually watch the highlights of that fight. I can count several instances where ****ell fouls Rocky. Blatant head ramming, shoving, punches that are questionably low. Rocky narrates this highlight reel, and in Round 3 clearly gets head butted in the face by Don, he even mentions it. So you're again choosing a side and willing to die on that hill by newspaper accounts alone, when film footage clearly tells another side of the story.

[Ivich]

You shoulder try to actually watch the highlights of that fight. I can count several instances where ****ell fouls Rocky. Blatant head ramming, shoving, punches that are questionably low. Rocky narrates this highlight reel, and in Round 3 clearly gets head butted in the face by Don, he even mentions it. So you're again choosing a side and willing to die on that hill by newspaper accounts alone, when film footage clearly tells another side of the story.

First watched this fight in the early 60's when I bought it on super 8mm, I've seen it probably 25 times since then, and the whole fight ,not highlights . ****ell was warned for fouling,Marciano was not!
I take it you dismiss the ringside reporters accounts out of hand?
Straws and clutching comes to mind here! LOL

[GhostofDempsey]

First watched this fight in the early 60's when I bought it on super 8mm, I've seen it probably 25 times since then, and the whole fight ,not highlights . ****ell was warned for fouling,Marciano was not!
I take it you dismiss the ringside reporters accounts out of hand?
Straws and clutching comes to mind here! LOL

I don't dismiss them, but I do know there are occasions where they get it wrong. For all of the press that reported on that fight, did every single one of them report it the same way? They sure don't in modern era boxing, so why would they back then? It's easy to cherry pick the sources that back up your point of view. I just gave you a clear example of how ****ell fouled him several times. Perhaps Rocky was just returning the favor? I've read a lot of things about Rocky, but not that he was a dirty fighter the way you are trying to portray him. I do agree with some of the observations you've made about him. He was a frugal guy and a lot of his peers and friends thought he was a cheapskate, but those were also guys who blew their fortunes throwing their money around. Willie Pep died broke, maybe he wasn't the best guy to question Rocky's spending habits?