Marciano and his management

[The Old LefHook]

He didn't have to commit those fouls but he often did.

If you have some evidence other than slander, feel free to present it. He never broke the code of honor once as a pro. He kneed a man in the nuts, learned his lesson, and went on to become the greatest professional fighter of all time. Very, very few will dispute that.

[Ivich]

If you have some evidence other than slander, feel free to present it. He never broke the code of honor once as a pro. He kneed a man in the nuts, learned his lesson, and went on to become the greatest professional fighter of all time. Very, very few will dispute that.

He hit Lastarza low several times in their second fight and was deducted points for it.
He hit Moore after the bell.
He hit ****ell low several times ,butted him hit him after the bell and whilst he was on the floor.

• In his dressing room after the fight, ****ell said he got a "raw deal." His manager complained that the referee allowed Marciano to headbutt, hit low and punch after the bell.
• Watch the fight! For more detail read Peter Wilson's report on the fight and his interview with Marciano.Here is an extract from Wilson's ringside report.
• "In the second round Marciano landed a kidney punch".
• "At the end of the third round he landed after the bell."
• "In the next round
• " In the 4th round ducking as usual below the waist,he straightened up so that the top of his head caught and cut Don's forehead causing him the rest of the fight".
• "In the 5th Marciano landed so low that ****ell reeled back into the ropes."
• "He landed low again in the next round,then trapped ****ell on the ropes and hit him three times after the bell."
• " In the 7th round Marciano butted and bored as he had done almost non-stop through out the fight,and landed another low blow at the end of the round."

In case you think this is just journalistic partisanship.

• Here is the report of the New York World Telegram and the Sun
• " Marciano violated practically every rule in the book.he hit after the bell,used his elbows and head at close quarters,several times hit below the belt and once hit ****ell while he was down."
• "If ****ell should get the idea that anything goes inthe American ring short of wielding a knife or pulling a gun you couldn't blame him," Joe Williams.

The Moore fight.End of the 4th round.
"After the bell Marciano throws another punch and Moore stands back and hits him deliberately in the mouth very hard and pushes him furiously away." Peter Wilson .Daily Mirror Ringside.

• life magazine reported: "Trying to knock the challenger out with one punch, the 29-year-old Marciano was over-eager and awkward. He lunged, butted, hit below the belt, on the break and after the bell. Once, he swung so wildly that he missed and slipped clumsily to the canvas. Outboxing the champion and avoiding his blows, LaStarza managed to win four of the first six rounds. In the seventh, Marciano changed his tactics, started aiming at LaStarza's body as well as his head in an attempt to wear the challenger down. "There are loads more but you can educate yourself about them.I think there are very very few boxing historians who would call |Marciano ,"the greatest professional fighter of all time."
• But I'll settle for you naming three!
• GOT ENOUGH EVIDENCE NOW? LOL

[billeau2]

I hold him in great esteem ,he was a great fighter and champion I simply took issue with the statement made on this forum that he was considered the greatest ever heavyweight champion by many ,that is not fact.
I'm not giving my opinions, I'm giving those of his close friends,boxing managers,and promoters, boxing writers,celebrities, and in one case his brother.If you don't want to accept them WTF do I care?
There are many testimonials to Marciano's reluctance to spend money.
Willie Pep said they were at a dinner being wined and dined and after a while he thought he would reciprocate and offered to buy a round of drinks.Marciano excused them took Pep to one side and angrily said ,don't make me look bad I'm not going to buy a drink or spend any money and neither are you so don't embarrass me.
Whom have you ever met/known who habitually carried a device to enable them to make free calls from public phones?

Why don't you read up on him before attacking me for giving the opinions of those that actually knew him? I see you practice Martial Arts,I'd say with your attitude to anyone you disagree with that's a very wise move ,because you're a proper bell-end! !

1. It is a kind of fact. It is a sentiment. It has limits, and certainly Marciano is not put into a discussion typically, when discussing the formal attributes of a great heavyweight... But There are those in the boxing community that have held that belief, in the past particularly. There are also those who claimed he was a product of a weak era and would get decimated... You see? there are a range of opinions and the fact is, if someone said "Vlad Klitsko is considered one of the best heavyweights by many trainers" I would say: "Im not so sure of that..."

Its not a matter of "acceptance." When you read enough sources, sometimes there are contrarians, there are those with a unique POV, and there are commonly held opinions. All I have maintained is that there are those, who are highly regarded, that hold that view...

I don't dispute Marciano's financial habits Ivich. My point was to go deeper and understand the basis for that behavior... These behaviors do not occur in a vacuum, there are reasons for why Marciano behaved like this and as you often try to point out... these reasons are documented. The Sports Illustrated article on Marciano was very well done and goes into his thinking.

You talk about sources... I agree, its a reason why I pursued higher education... But part of using sources is understanding the big picture. Liston was exceptional... One reason? Yeah he had some issues lol, but he was chronically abused by a deadbeat dad, and had 16 siblings! So when Liston was so kind to children and appreciative to those who helped him, to me that means he was special. He had to overcome those conditions and nobody totally escapes such treatment. YOu understand the point about the big picture here? Let me spell it out: If someone said "Liston was a bully" it would be like saying "Marciano was stingy." There is more to the story...right?

During Marciano's time many people carried "slugs" fake coins to feed, or a slug on a device to pull out... That common knowledge lol! I don't know anyone as my birth was in 1964...people still used slugs but they had already made it more difficult.

[billeau2]

Marciano's Father worked at the last, one of the hardest jobs in the shoe factory,do you think you are telling me anything I don't already know and have known for half a century?
What Marciano's motives were for being a miser may very well be ,excusable.and understandable,what they do not change is that he was one! Sorry Mr Fan Boy.Them's The Fact's LOL

ps .It's eludes as in escapes, not alludes which is in reference to.

Telling you what you know? Hey blovated one... its not a contest! I think you know less than you think responding like that: People that "know" and they are here, don't ever get egotistical like that, its a giveaway...

Its not excusing, its explaining, deconstructing... like those books you claim you read lol. And when have I said I am a fan of Marciano? Youve got the grudge, I am only sharing things I have learned... I respect Marciano's legacy and think like most fighters from before the Ammy era, he had more skills than people give him credit for, but that would apply to a lot more fighters than just Marciano.

You see? You come here trying to prove people wrong, trying to tell people how smart you are... doesn't work here bub. There are posters here that are really very knowlegable and the one thing they do not do is explain "WHY" they are so smart, or chastise people for "telling them something they already know."

Grow up. And BTW if you want to debate Turner, start a thread! It would be a great topic. Mr Turner did some incredible things with Hollyfield imo.

[them_apples]

He hit Lastarza low several times in their second fight and was deducted points for it.
He hit Moore after the bell.
He hit ****ell low several times ,butted him hit him after the bell and whilst he was on the floor.

• In his dressing room after the fight, ****ell said he got a "raw deal." His manager complained that the referee allowed Marciano to headbutt, hit low and punch after the bell.
• Watch the fight! For more detail read Peter Wilson's report on the fight and his interview with Marciano.Here is an extract from Wilson's ringside report.
• "In the second round Marciano landed a kidney punch".
• "At the end of the third round he landed after the bell."
• "In the next round
• " In the 4th round ducking as usual below the waist,he straightened up so that the top of his head caught and cut Don's forehead causing him the rest of the fight".
• "In the 5th Marciano landed so low that ****ell reeled back into the ropes."
• "He landed low again in the next round,then trapped ****ell on the ropes and hit him three times after the bell."
• " In the 7th round Marciano butted and bored as he had done almost non-stop through out the fight,and landed another low blow at the end of the round."

In case you think this is just journalistic partisanship.

• Here is the report of the New York World Telegram and the Sun
• " Marciano violated practically every rule in the book.he hit after the bell,used his elbows and head at close quarters,several times hit below the belt and once hit ****ell while he was down."
• "If ****ell should get the idea that anything goes inthe American ring short of wielding a knife or pulling a gun you couldn't blame him," Joe Williams.

The Moore fight.End of the 4th round.
"After the bell Marciano throws another punch and Moore stands back and hits him deliberately in the mouth very hard and pushes him furiously away." Peter Wilson .Daily Mirror Ringside.

• life magazine reported: "Trying to knock the challenger out with one punch, the 29-year-old Marciano was over-eager and awkward. He lunged, butted, hit below the belt, on the break and after the bell. Once, he swung so wildly that he missed and slipped clumsily to the canvas. Outboxing the champion and avoiding his blows, LaStarza managed to win four of the first six rounds. In the seventh, Marciano changed his tactics, started aiming at LaStarza's body as well as his head in an attempt to wear the challenger down. "There are loads more but you can educate yourself about them.I think there are very very few boxing historians who would call |Marciano ,"the greatest professional fighter of all time."
• But I'll settle for you naming three!
• GOT ENOUGH EVIDENCE NOW? LOL

This is essentially imperative knowledge but not declarative. Which means you are using data that can't properly be classified (most of it, not all). You would use this type of data to find REAL answers but not use it as a real answer in itself. Yes Rocky did these things, but in his time this was normal and not all considered directly a foul. fighting was rough back then. If you put him in the ring today it would be considered a foul. It's like tallying up the car brands with the most crashes and using those numbers to determine which car is safer. easy sell for plebs, but in reality way too many untouched factors aren't being mentioned. (like whos driving the car??)

I could name 100 other fighters who employed these tactics during his day and before. A foul in his day is a directly targeted low blow - which many fighters have done even in the current era by accident or on purpose.

So while you made a big list of examples, non of them are clearly proving your point. Although the last statement is a better one, giving a first hand opinion from someone in his time period. Does this mean he was collectively looked at as a dirty fighter? or a rough one? you must view it from someone who was following boxing in the 50's. You buried 1 or 2 good points in amongst a bunch of imperative data. For example, every short pressure fighter is prone to butting, simply because his head is always closer to his opponents head. this would be an example of how your point is subjective and misleading if used as a fact. Hitting after the bell, is often an accident, and still is.

So to sum up your post, you gave a few good examples, and a whole bunch of subjective points that could be mistakes, spur of the moment accidents (kidney punches are really common if an opponent turns their back, as are rabbit punches).

I'll say this: based on observation he was a very rough styled fighter, and for his time his actions were perfectly acceptable given his style.

If you want to attack someone for fighting dirty, watch Dempsey. His stoppage of Sharkey was a direct result of clever dirty fighting.

If its still confusing ill apply the same logic to other fighters and easily make them look like the dirtiest fighters of all time.

[billeau2]

This is essentially imperative knowledge but not declarative. Which means you are using data that can't properly be classified (most of it, not all). You would use this type of data to find REAL answers but not use it as a real answer in itself. Yes Rocky did these things, but in his time this was normal and not all considered directly a foul. fighting was rough back then. If you put him in the ring today it would be considered a foul. It's like tallying up the car brands with the most crashes and using those numbers to determine which car is safer. easy sell for plebs, but in reality way too many untouched factors aren't being mentioned. (like whos driving the car??)

I could name 100 other fighters who employed these tactics during his day and before. A foul in his day is a directly targeted low blow - which many fighters have done even in the current era by accident or on purpose.

So while you made a big list of examples, non of them are clearly proving your point. Although the last statement is a better one, giving a first hand opinion from someone in his time period. Does this mean he was collectively looked at as a dirty fighter? or a rough one? you must view it from someone who was following boxing in the 50's. You buried 1 or 2 good points in amongst a bunch of imperative data. For example, every short pressure fighter is prone to butting, simply because his head is always closer to his opponents head. this would be an example of how your point is subjective and misleading if used as a fact. Hitting after the bell, is often an accident, and still is.

So to sum up your post, you gave a few good examples, and a whole bunch of subjective points that could be mistakes, spur of the moment accidents (kidney punches are really common if an opponent turns their back, as are rabbit punches).

I'll say this: based on observation he was a very rough styled fighter, and for his time his actions were perfectly acceptable given his style.

If you want to attack someone for fighting dirty, watch Dempsey. His stoppage of Sharkey was a direct result of clever dirty fighting.

If its still confusing ill apply the same logic to other fighters and easily make them look like the dirtiest fighters of all time.

Very well said! Its what casuals do!! They selectively note things, often out of context, that excuse away all the fights a great fighter won... meanwhile implying that wins for the other fighters were subject to none of the same processes.

So the latest "expert" to join us (lol) makes it appear that the heavyweight division in the 50's was a well ordered, clean fighting group where seldom a foul was committed! then there was Mean Marciano!!!! who rabbit punched, kidney shotted, etc! You can't make this stuff up lol.

[Ivich]

This is essentially imperative knowledge but not declarative. Which means you are using data that can't properly be classified (most of it, not all). You would use this type of data to find REAL answers but not use it as a real answer in itself. Yes Rocky did these things, but in his time this was normal and not all considered directly a foul. fighting was rough back then. If you put him in the ring today it would be considered a foul. It's like tallying up the car brands with the most crashes and using those numbers to determine which car is safer. easy sell for plebs, but in reality way too many untouched factors aren't being mentioned. (like whos driving the car??)

I could name 100 other fighters who employed these tactics during his day and before. A foul in his day is a directly targeted low blow - which many fighters have done even in the current era by accident or on purpose.

So while you made a big list of examples, non of them are clearly proving your point. Although the last statement is a better one, giving a first hand opinion from someone in his time period. Does this mean he was collectively looked at as a dirty fighter? or a rough one? you must view it from someone who was following boxing in the 50's. You buried 1 or 2 good points in amongst a bunch of imperative data. For example, every short pressure fighter is prone to butting, simply because his head is always closer to his opponents head. this would be an example of how your point is subjective and misleading if used as a fact. Hitting after the bell, is often an accident, and still is.

So to sum up your post, you gave a few good examples, and a whole bunch of subjective points that could be mistakes, spur of the moment accidents (kidney punches are really common if an opponent turns their back, as are rabbit punches).

I'll say this: based on observation he was a very rough styled fighter, and for his time his actions were perfectly acceptable given his style.

If you want to attack someone for fighting dirty, watch Dempsey. His stoppage of Sharkey was a direct result of clever dirty fighting.


If its still confusing ill apply the same logic to other fighters and easily make them look like the dirtiest fighters of all time.

You Marcionista's are hilarious ,I post a load of quotes from boxing writers who were actually ringside for his fights and you say it's not declarative.That is circular BS Was it normal to hit a fighter after the bell ? Hit him low ?Hit his opponent when he was on the floor? If thats the case why were point deducted from him for doing so ?The rules havent changed in the last70 years! A poster asks for evidence Marciano committed fouls and tsating unless I provide it I'm slandering him,[actually that would be libel but still,] and you get on your high horse and come galloping to Rocky;s defence? Im not attacking him for being a dirty fighter,though on occasion he was.Don ****ell told me," he was a bit deaf where the bell was concerned."
If I posted a video of Rocky kicking an opponent in the nuts and then stamping on his face when he went down,you would say, well he must have been provoked or that isn't Rocky, it's a doppelganger got up to look like him and discredit him!LOL
You are ridiculous

[Ivich]

Very well said! Its what casuals do!! They selectively note things, often out of context, that excuse away all the fights a great fighter won... meanwhile implying that wins for the other fighters were subject to none of the same processes.

So the latest "expert" to join us (lol) makes it appear that the heavyweight division in the 50's was a well ordered, clean fighting group where seldom a foul was committed! then there was Mean Marciano!!!! who rabbit punched, kidney shotted, etc! You can't make this stuff up lol.

Yeah ,after watching, participating, reading, about the sport for 63 years,I'm a casual . Cheers Mr Fan Boy . Ever heard that saying two wrongs don't make a right? Well two doughtnuts don't make a picnic either!

[Ivich]

Telling you what you know? Hey blovated one... its not a contest! I think you know less than you think responding like that: People that "know" and they are here, don't ever get egotistical like that, its a giveaway...

Its not excusing, its explaining, deconstructing... like those books you claim you read lol. And when have I said I am a fan of Marciano? Youve got the grudge, I am only sharing things I have learned... I respect Marciano's legacy and think like most fighters from before the Ammy era, he had more skills than people give him credit for, but that would apply to a lot more fighters than just Marciano.

You see? You come here trying to prove people wrong, trying to tell people how smart you are... doesn't work here bub. There are posters here that are really very knowlegable and the one thing they do not do is explain "WHY" they are so smart, or chastise people for "telling them something they already know."

Grow up. And BTW if you want to debate Turner, start a thread! It would be a great topic. Mr Turner did some incredible things with Hollyfield imo.

Fan Boy.Don't let truth get in the way of your hero worship. If Rocky were alive today he would have the cleanest anus in the US! LOL

[them_apples]

You Marcionista's are hilarious ,I post a load of quotes from boxing writers who were actually ringside for his fights and you say it's not declarative.That is circular BS Was it normal to hit a fighter after the bell ? Hit him low ?Hit his opponent when he was on the floor? If thats the case why were point deducted from him for doing so ?The rules havent changed in the last70 years! A poster asks for evidence Marciano committed fouls and tsating unless I provide it I'm slandering him,[actually that would be libel but still,] and you get on your high horse and come galloping to Rocky;s defence? Im not attacking him for being a dirty fighter,though on occasion he was.Don ****ell told me," he was a bit deaf where the bell was concerned."
If I posted a video of Rocky kicking an opponent in the nuts and then stamping on his face when he went down,you would say, well he must have been provoked or that isn't Rocky, it's a doppelganger got up to look like him and discredit him!LOL
You are ridiculous

Not at all, your opinion is valid and welcomed. Its how you display your opinions. We can all poke holes in opinions which in a sense is what we are doing with you. Likewise you can do this with me. The problem lies when you state things as facts when they are the farthest thing from fact if a proper analysis is made.

for example “he bends below the waist” Well first of all I need to look up when that rule was even put into effect. Since many MANY fighters did this in Joe Louis era. Second he’s also being smothered half the time and leaned on.

kidney punches? They happen often enough, especially when a fighter turns sideways to avoid a blow, something many of Rocky and Foreman (both hard punchers) had to deal with regularly.

these are examples, not facts - but they sit in line with as much credibility as the negative counter to the statements you are making.

Another example: fighters being leaned on are prone to throwing low blows. Rocky was leaned on his entire career. Being Leaned on perpetually and pushed are also fouls, but fall in line with circumstantial judgement.

half the things Rocky did you claim as dirty were necessary to counter the “dirty” tactics being subtly deployed on him.

Duran deliberately thumbing Moore is an example of a dirty fight tactic. He did it with intention to be dirty. This would be more “factual” representation, and Duran generally was considered a dirty fighter.