Why was Ali's return from exile that much more successful than Tysons?

[GhostofDempsey]

Yea looks like Shavers threw almost 200 more power punches and landed almost 70 more power punches.

Ali only dominated the Jab which helped close the total number of punches thrown down to a 170 advantage for Shavers, and a 60 punch advantage landed.

Unless Ali's jab was that paramount in effective aggression it seems such numbers should have given Shavers the decision.

The power punches seem to really tell the story, but the judges thought different.

But I have always been against 'punch counting' as being the paramount determination. Ask Anthony32, he's still pissed at me.

So I don't know, numbers sure favor Shavers.

I realize punch stat numbers don't tell the whole story. Theoretically a fighter could land all or most of his punches in 4 rounds and do nothing else the rest of the fight, but the Shavers fight was a controversial decision, which I felt was fair game in questioning the outcome. It seems questioning any of Ali's wins comes with a price from fans who are smitten with the legend of Ali and are unable to take an objective look at his performances. It's difficult for most fans to be unbiased and objective, and it's a fool's errand trying to change their mind. I know this all to well, here. ;-)

[Ivich]

Jones, Frazier II, Norton II & III, Young and Shavers. Razor thin wins, over supurb opposition. Showing that, be it Ruth, Cobb, Dimaggio, Mantle, Mayes, Aaron, Jeeter or Ali at bat; you don't hit em' ALL out of the park. If it had been just some mere mortal at the helm during the mid 1970s instead of Ali, history would have shown the one title passed around frequently between the likes of those opponents. To say noth of Forman factoring in there. Beleive it. Criticism of Ali????....Silly misadventure.

The Shavers decision wasn't razor thin, all Ali had to do going into the last round was stay on his feet.The judges and the press unanimously voted for Ali

[Ivich]

I realize punch stat numbers don't tell the whole story. Theoretically a fighter could land all or most of his punches in 4 rounds and do nothing else the rest of the fight, but the Shavers fight was a controversial decision, which I felt was fair game in questioning the outcome. It seems questioning any of Ali's wins comes with a price from fans who are smitten with the legend of Ali and are unable to take an objective look at his performances. It's difficult for most fans to be unbiased and objective, and it's a fool's errand trying to change their mind. I know this all to well, here. ;-)

Questioning any fight result is fine,implying close decisions that did not go the way you saw it are robberies is not. BTW My favourite fighter is Dempsey although I of course lived through the Ali years.

[GhostofDempsey]

Questioning any fight result is fine,implying close decisions that did not go the way you saw it are robberies is not. BTW My favourite fighter is Dempsey although I of course lived through the Ali years.

I think when there is enough speculation to doubt the outcome of several fights it's enough to suggest a robbery. Because of Ali's status and all that he had done for the sport, he was still the network golden goose, the money fighter. There was no one to pass the torch to in the 70's, and they gave him the close fights. In fact, that's how most robberies work. Score cards will be kept close as a way to avoid su****ion.

[Ivich]

I think when there is enough speculation to doubt the outcome of several fights it's enough to suggest a robbery. Because of Ali's status and all that he had done for the sport, he was still the network golden goose, the money fighter. There was no one to pass the torch to in the 70's, and they gave him the close fights. In fact, that's how most robberies work. Score cards will be kept close as a way to avoid su****ion.

I can only repeat, nobody apart from you, saw the Shavers fight as a close one,not the officials and not the press. I've read no speculation about that fight,not in the trade magazines at the time ,and not in any book on Ali I've read since.

[GhostofDempsey]

I can only repeat, nobody apart from you, saw the Shavers fight as a close one,not the officials and not the press.

That's false. There's at least 17 people who agree with me that Shavers won on this link alone:

http://eyeonthering.com/boxing/muhammad-ali-vs-earnie-shavers

Then we have the thousands of fans who actually booed the decision at the fight. Sportswriter Jerry Izenberg had the fight even after the 14th, much closer in his view.

From a Sports Illustrated article after the fight, it seems quite a few had Ernie "Far ahead" after 12 rounds. Remember, this fight had open scoring which was announced after each round.

Ali's 22nd title fight was televised by NBC, and as an extra attraction the network had arranged to flash the official scoring on the screen after every round. Such an obvious edge was not lost on Angelo Dundee, Ali's smart little trainer, who posted Baltimore matchmaker Eddie Hrica in the champion's dressing quarters to watch the TV set there and relay the numbers after each round. And so, after 12 rounds, Dundee knew the only way Shavers could beat his man was by a knockout.

Across the ring Shavers was being given quite a different picture. Near the challenger's corner were several members of his home-state Ohio Boxing Commission, two reporters and José Sulaiman, the president of the World Boxing Council. All were scoring the fight and they all reported regularly to Luca that they had Shavers far in the lead. No sweat. Don't take any chances, Earnie. In truth, it was not an easy fight to score. Ali's fights of late seldom have been.

[Willow The Wisp]

The Shavers decision wasn't razor thin, all Ali had to do going into the last round was stay on his feet.The judges and the press unanimously voted for Ali

Competitive?

[Willow The Wisp]

Meh, Ivach has repeatedly insulted me and other members here who he disagrees with, and dismissed just about all of our sources. My flippant response to him was for his refusal to accept any other opinion or sources other than his own. I'm not trying to "win" anything here. I post my opinion, I support it with documentation, references, articles, and testimonies where available and applicable. I respect your position and opinion on the matter, but there is more context to my reply than what appears in just one dismissive response to him. He earned that.

It wouldn't take much effort for me to show how Shavers through about 200 more punches than Ali and landed nearly 100 more. He was the aggressor throughout and took the fight to Ali. I'm not the only one who feels Ali was gifted that decision. Same goes for his first rematch with Frazier, his rematches with Norton (especially the third fight) and his snooze-fest with Young.

I understand.

[Ivich]

I understand.

• Unofficial AP scorecard: 10-5 Ali
• Unofficial UPI scorecard: 8-6-1 Ali

[QueensburyRules]

I can only repeat, nobody apart from you, saw the Shavers fight as a close one,not the officials and not the press. I've read no speculation about that fight,not in the trade magazines at the time ,and not in any book on Ali I've read since.

- - Be a good boy and a new set of spectacles be under the tree for your Christmas.