Why was Ali's return from exile that much more successful than Tysons?

[Ivich]

- - Jimmy Jacobs DIED, passed away, adiosy.

What grade they kick U out of 6 years ago?

Bill Cayton was the money man and joint manager with Jacobs who supplied the boxing input ,mostly aided by Mickey Duff a close friend who suggested several early opponents for Tyson. When Jacobs died Cayton was the sole manager until, under Kings poisonous influence Tyson dispensed with his services .From that moment it was all downhill. Lucrative sponsorship contracts were cancelled ,Rooney was let go ,and the thug behind the mask was given full reign Here is a suggestion,instead of trying to compete with me why don't you do some research?Then perhaps you wouldn't mug yourself quite so much?

[Ivich]

There is such a thing as robberies and bad decisions, perhaps you've heard of them or seen a few yourself? Where Ali was concerned, all parties involved were still milking that money machine for networks and promoters. There were no other polarizing figures in boxing at that time. Frazier, Shavers, Norton, Young were not going to fill that void if Ali loses. These fights were close enough that they could get away with gifting decisions in Ali's favor. Even refs were reluctant to warn him or penalize him, in the Frazier II fight he clinched Frazier over 130 times, usually around the neck or pushing down on his neck. Not one warning from the ref.

Mark Kram said the referee would have been justified to call Young's multiple leaning out through the ropes knock downs ,but he only called one.
Fights as close as the 2nd Norton fight are not robberies no more than can Leonard's win over Hagler can be called one.Some boxing writers called it for Ali ,some for Norton and a couple thought a draw would have been just.
Yes I've seen plenty of bad decisions .only recently I thought Danny Jacobs beat Ryder, but he didn't get the nod.RIcky Hatton's son got a gift not so long ago.Josh Taylor clearly lost his last fight imo and the referee was demoted after an inquiry. The most blatant bias I've seen is usually in Germany,but the UK fights I've mentioned were pretty bad.
Marciano constantly fouling ****ell with head butts low blows after the bell and whilst on the floor drew not a single warning form the referee.
BTW Tony Perez the third man in Frazier 2 did Ali no favours his 6.-5 score for Ali was the closest of the three officials and he may have robbed Ali of an early stoppage win when he jumped between the fighters after Ali had stunned Frazier with a right hand in the 2nd believing he had heard the bell.
Perez explained why he did not warn Ali for his holding.
Ali landed a straight right to Frazier's jaw late in the second round. Wobbling slightly, Frazier retreated to the ropes, but the referee leaped between them.


"Somebody called 'bell,' so I stopped them both," Perez explained later. "Then the gong table yelled, 'Tony, the round isn't over.' Usually I hear the bell, but the bell was defective before the fight. They had to call the electrician to fix it. It was only five to eight seconds."

Afforded a moment's rest, Frazier easily finished the round, which ended 10 seconds later.

Throughout the bout, Frazier complained to Perez that Ali was holding too much. His trainer, Eddie Futch, told Perez, "You gotta stop this!"

"The only violation," Perez said after the bout, "is if you held and hit at the same time. Ali was holding, but he wasn't hitting."

.Ali's holding was mild compared to Wlad's in several fights, his performance against Povetkin was a disgrace,imo

[Willow The Wisp]

Mark Kram said the referee would have been justified to call Young's multiple leaning out through the ropes knock downs ,but he only called one.
Fights as close as the 2nd Norton fight are not robberies no more than can Leonard's win over Hagler can be called one.Some boxing writers called it for Ali ,some for Norton and a couple thought a draw would have been just.
Yes I've seen plenty of bad decisions .only recently I thought Danny Jacobs beat Ryder, but he didn't get the nod.RIcky Hatton's son got a gift not so long ago.Josh Taylor clearly lost his last fight imo and the referee was demoted after an inquiry. The most blatant bias I've seen is usually in Germany,but the UK fights I've mentioned were pretty bad.
Marciano constantly fouling ****ell with head butts low blows after the bell and whilst on the floor drew not a single warning form the referee.
BTW Tony Perez the third man in Frazier 2 did Ali no favours his 6.-5 score for Ali was the closest of the three officials and he may have robbed Ali of an early stoppage win when he jumped between the fighters after Ali had stunned Frazier with a right hand in the 2nd believing he had heard the bell.
Perez explained why he did not warn Ali for his holding.
Ali landed a straight right to Frazier's jaw late in the second round. Wobbling slightly, Frazier retreated to the ropes, but the referee leaped between them.


"Somebody called 'bell,' so I stopped them both," Perez explained later. "Then the gong table yelled, 'Tony, the round isn't over.' Usually I hear the bell, but the bell was defective before the fight. They had to call the electrician to fix it. It was only five to eight seconds."

Afforded a moment's rest, Frazier easily finished the round, which ended 10 seconds later.

Throughout the bout, Frazier complained to Perez that Ali was holding too much. His trainer, Eddie Futch, told Perez, "You gotta stop this!"

"The only violation," Perez said after the bout, "is if you held and hit at the same time. Ali was holding, but he wasn't hitting."

.Ali's holding was mild compared to Wlad's in several fights, his performance against Povetkin was a disgrace,imo

The protracted debate method is generally preferred to a simple summation because if affords readers who are not hobbled by an incurious nature to learn and grow. So, if I were to appoint myself ombudsman (as surely I would have to on a board such as this), I declare you the winner. This time. I simply deduct points for dismissive insults like TLDNR or Yawn emojis and the like. These are especially repulsive in lieu of good analytical retort and data. In Court you come with reason, and facts in evidence, just as you did. Still, if there is a lesson to dispense here, it goes to you, Sir, and with respect; when I encourage judicious and spare selection in what entices your response. If I don't respond to something somebody wrote with implications that I respond and I don't, it's most likely owing to my simply not having seen that post. But sometimes, it's because the board contributor has not done the labor to earn my response. Try it. It's satisfying enough.

[Willow The Wisp]

No offense implied to GhostofDempsey or any other good poster here, at all. You'll sure get him next time. I don't do keyboard warrior anyway.

[GhostofDempsey]

The protracted debate method is generally preferred to a simple summation because if affords readers who are not hobbled by an incurious nature to learn and grow. So, if I were to appoint myself ombudsman (as surely I would have to on a board such as this), I declare you the winner. This time. I simply deduct points for dismissive insults like TLDNR or Yawn emojis and the like. These are especially repulsive in lieu of good analytical retort and data. In Court you come with reason, and facts in evidence, just as you did. Still, if there is a lesson to dispense here, it goes to you, Sir, and with respect; when I encourage judicious and spare selection in what entices your response. If I don't respond to something somebody wrote with implications that I respond and I don't, it's most likely owing to my simply not having seen that post. But sometimes, it's because the board contributor has not done the labor to earn my response. Try it. It's satisfying enough.

Meh, Ivach has repeatedly insulted me and other members here who he disagrees with, and dismissed just about all of our sources. My flippant response to him was for his refusal to accept any other opinion or sources other than his own. I'm not trying to "win" anything here. I post my opinion, I support it with documentation, references, articles, and testimonies where available and applicable. I respect your position and opinion on the matter, but there is more context to my reply than what appears in just one dismissive response to him. He earned that.

It wouldn't take much effort for me to show how Shavers threw about 200 more punches than Ali and landed nearly 100 more. He was the aggressor throughout and took the fight to Ali. I'm not the only one who feels Ali was gifted that decision. Same goes for his first rematch with Frazier, his rematches with Norton (especially the third fight) and his snooze-fest with Young.

[QueensburyRules]

Bill Cayton was the money man and joint manager with Jacobs who supplied the boxing input ,mostly aided by Mickey Duff a close friend who suggested several early opponents for Tyson. When Jacobs died Cayton was the sole manager until, under Kings poisonous influence Tyson dispensed with his services .From that moment it was all downhill. Lucrative sponsorship contracts were cancelled ,Rooney was let go ,and the thug behind the mask was given full reign Here is a suggestion,instead of trying to compete with me why don't you do some research?Then perhaps you wouldn't mug yourself quite so much?

- - OK, U fergot what grade U was in 63 years ago when they kicked U out of school. Can't figure now any better than then.

King couldn't immediately dispense with Cayton legally until later. Tyson always had a distant relationship with Cayton whereas Cus and Jacobs were hands on active. King filled that hands on gap. Cayton was still active with Mike during Chinese record setting purses for the Foreman fight that got killed by Tiananmen Square incident/massacre. He was still in charge of his 50mil retirement fund when King submitted to Tyson after King's orchestrated **** imprisonment a Financial/Legal Power of Attorney that Mike signed that eliminated the last of Cayton's duties...you're welcome

[BKM-]

C. 's layoff didn't degrade his abilities as much as Tyson's did.

Interesting, I have to disagree here. I think Ali lost more and had to change his style in a more drastic manner. The ability to dance and move on his toes for 15 rounds was gone and so was a good portion of his upperbody movement. I think he also lost endurance.

Tyson retained most of his speed and explosiveness post-**** and kept the same style. He didn't lose his one trick pony style: To finish the opponent quickly and effectively. He just ran into some brick walls who would have beaten him at any point.

[QueensburyRules]

Interesting, I have to disagree here. I think Ali lost more and had to change his style in a more drastic manner. The ability to dance and move on his toes for 15 rounds was gone and so was a good portion of his upperbody movement. I think he also lost endurance.

Tyson retained most of his speed and explosiveness post-**** and kept the same style. He didn't lose his one trick pony style: To finish the opponent quickly and effectively. He just ran into some brick walls who would have beaten him at any point.

- - 'cept they weren't around when it counted.

If any of U jokos can't understand the preliminary training reports out of Japan showed a greatly degraded Tyson, and U continue to deny the Grade C DKing installed trainers that replaced the Cus trained Rooney, ie the ones looked like a clown show in the ring vs Buster using a rubber glove filled with ice water instead of endswell, than I fear for your families and hope and pray U don't have a license to drive an auto or motorcycle and pray U never register to vote.

We already have enough puredee idiots clogging up those three functions without adding anymore.

[Ivich]

Meh, Ivach has repeatedly insulted me and other members here who he disagrees with, and dismissed just about all of our sources. My flippant response to him was for his refusal to accept any other opinion or sources other than his own. I'm not trying to "win" anything here. I post my opinion, I support it with documentation, references, articles, and testimonies where available and applicable. I respect your position and opinion on the matter, but there is more context to my reply than what appears in just one dismissive response to him. He earned that.

It wouldn't take much effort for me to show how Shavers through about 200 more punches than Ali and landed nearly 100 more. He was the aggressor throughout and took the fight to Ali. I'm not the only one who feels Ali was gifted that decision. Same goes for his first rematch with Frazier, his rematches with Norton (especially the third fight) and his snooze-fest with Young.

Ali on the left Shavers on the right.LOL!

Landed	80	57
Thrown	336	315
Percent	23.8%	18.1%
Landed	128	209
Thrown	373	563
Percent	34.3%	37.1%
Landed	208	266
Thrown	709	878
Percent	29.3%	30.3%

• Ali entered the ring accompanied by the theme music from Star Wars.
• This bout was broadcast in primetime on NBC. The commentators were **** Enberg, Larry Merchant and Ken Norton, the #1 ranked heavyweight contender.
• NBC arranged to flash the official scoring on the screen after every round. Such an obvious edge was not lost on Angelo Dundee, Ali's trainer, who posted Baltimore matchmaker Eddie Hrica in the champion's dressing quarters to watch the TV set there and relay the numbers after each round. And so, after 12 rounds, Dundee knew the only way Shavers could beat his man was by a knockout.

ewspaper Articles

• "Odds Heavily Favor Ali vs. Shavers" - The Milwaukee Sentinel - September 29, 1977
• "Ali decision winner over Shavers" - St. Petersburg Times - September 30, 1977

[GhostofDempsey]

Ali on the left Shavers on the right.LOL!

Landed	80	57
Thrown	336	315
Percent	23.8%	18.1%
Landed	128	209
Thrown	373	563
Percent	34.3%	37.1%
Landed	208	266
Thrown	709	878
Percent	29.3%	30.3%

• Ali entered the ring accompanied by the theme music from Star Wars.
• This bout was broadcast in primetime on NBC. The commentators were **** Enberg, Larry Merchant and Ken Norton, the #1 ranked heavyweight contender.
• NBC arranged to flash the official scoring on the screen after every round. Such an obvious edge was not lost on Angelo Dundee, Ali's trainer, who posted Baltimore matchmaker Eddie Hrica in the champion's dressing quarters to watch the TV set there and relay the numbers after each round. And so, after 12 rounds, Dundee knew the only way Shavers could beat his man was by a knockout.

ewspaper Articles

• "Odds Heavily Favor Ali vs. Shavers" - The Milwaukee Sentinel - September 29, 1977
• "Ali decision winner over Shavers" - St. Petersburg Times - September 30, 1977

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