H2H Marciano could beat anyone 200 lbs and below

[QueensburyRules]

- -And for the record, prime to prime I'd pick Sam 2 of 3 over Rocky.

[Willie Pep 229]

- -And for the record, prime to prime I'd pick Sam 2 of 3 over Rocky.

Not from the one film I saw of him . . . Prime to prime Marciano overwhelms the primitive back foot style of any fighter from that epoch.

Marciano cuts down Willard just as Dempsey did.

In the film, McVea (I believe it was) and Langford lunged, fired and grabbed. Marciano would put a new type of continuous pressure on Langford he wouldn't know how to respond.

Marciano stops him over and ovver; it's never a competive fight. You can't match any of the fighters from that era/style with any of the ATGs post Dempsey.

Now 1926 Tunney on the other hand cuts Marciano's face to ribbons; but if Rocky can keep his blood inside of him long enough then Tunney may, late in the fight, go the way of Walcott.

[Marchegiano]

Scared is a red flag word designed to get the listener to extrapolate that the man is a coward.

His statement wasn't a nuance about a young Dempsey in awe of one of the great fighters of his day, his too general remark becomes an accusation that Dempsey, at any stage of his career was too frightened to fight Langford.

You're trying to walk back his statement; it is a constant BS tactic (probably unintentional) to make statements that don't express the entire situation thus leading the reader down a rabbit hole of misinformation.

Secondly, quoting Dempsey without explaining the circumstances surrounding the quote once again leads the reader to a false extrapolation that Dempsey at any stage of his career was frightened of Langford when it seems obvious he was just trying to praise a fellow fighter.

Too many fighter quotes on BS are used outside of their historical context and should be clarified.

I just want to clarify because I've spoken on him so much and it is pretty much always criticism. When I said scared in reference to, any champion really but especially Jack Dempsey, I never meant to imply coward. I don't think any of the members thinks Jack Dempsey was a coward. Jack was definitely a considered and balanced man though and certainly his story can not be told without ascribing some level of fear to something.

I mean, the major subject for that dude is colorline and not fighting blacks. You can explain it away so that Dempsey is not scared of the challenger individually or personally, but you can't explain it in any way where Dempsey is fearless. Basically, he's either scared of black men or he's scared of the audience. There is no getting out of the scared label. Doesn't mean coward.

[QueensburyRules]

I just want to clarify because I've spoken on him so much and it is pretty much always criticism. When I said scared in reference to, any champion really but especially Jack Dempsey, I never meant to imply coward. I don't think any of the members thinks Jack Dempsey was a coward. Jack was definitely a considered and balanced man though and certainly his story can not be told without ascribing some level of fear to something.

I mean, the major subject for that dude is colorline and not fighting blacks. You can explain it away so that Dempsey is not scared of the challenger individually or personally, but you can't explain it in any way where Dempsey is fearless. Basically, he's either scared of black men or he's scared of the audience. There is no getting out of the scared label. Doesn't mean coward.

- -Most of Dempsey's sparring partners were hungry black Americans, and his good friend, cornerman, as well a sparmate for Willard, Big Bill Tate, accompanied Jack to Hollywood where Jack came under criticism for allowing a black fella to live with him.

Prob solved when Dempsey made Tate his chauffer driving some of the most storied autos of the era. Jack fought in a segregated era just like you live in a era making a global warming trillion dollar war in the middle east. It don't mean you personally are wanting war in the ME, but maybe your elected officials do that make you responsible. Jack didn't elect the official poohbahs that controlled boxing either.

Jack also fought a couple of black fighter coming up and got his first taste of official boxing in Salt Lake City where he was janitor for the only boxing gym in SLC run by a black lightweight contender whose name escapes me at the moment. I suggest you get your own world ordered because this era looks very poor in relation to Jack's era.

[QueensburyRules]

Not from the one film I saw of him . . . Prime to prime Marciano overwhelms the primitive back foot style of any fighter from that epoch.

Marciano cuts down Willard just as Dempsey did.

In the film, McVea (I believe it was) and Langford lunged, fired and grabbed. Marciano would put a new type of continuous pressure on Langford he wouldn't know how to respond.

Marciano stops him over and ovver; it's never a competive fight. You can't match any of the fighters from that era/style with any of the ATGs post Dempsey.

Now 1926 Tunney on the other hand cuts Marciano's face to ribbons; but if Rocky can keep his blood inside of him long enough then Tunney may, late in the fight, go the way of Walcott.

- - We have Rock's title fights + a few more. We don't have much on Langford, but we do have much of a most excellent masterpiece Sam fought against Jeannette for a portion of the hvy title.

Sam shorter than Rock with longer arms and more proven power over a much longer career. How many fighters did Rock face hitting as hard as Sam standing only 5-6?

[Marchegiano]

- -Most of Dempsey's sparring partners were hungry black Americans, and his good friend, cornerman, as well a sparmate for Willard, Big Bill Tate, accompanied Jack to Hollywood where Jack came under criticism for allowing a black fella to live with him.

Prob solved when Dempsey made Tate his chauffer driving some of the most storied autos of the era. Jack fought in a segregated era just like you live in a era making a global warming trillion dollar war in the middle east. It don't mean you personally are wanting war in the ME, but maybe your elected officials do that make you responsible. Jack didn't elect the official poohbahs that controlled boxing either.

Jack also fought a couple of black fighter coming up and got his first taste of official boxing in Salt Lake City where he was janitor for the only boxing gym in SLC run by a black lightweight contender whose name escapes me at the moment. I suggest you get your own world ordered because this era looks very poor in relation to Jack's era.

I don't rightly understand how I inspired this post to be honest.

[Willie Pep 229]

- - We have Rock's title fights + a few more. We don't have much on Langford, but we do have much of a most excellent masterpiece Sam fought against Jeannette for a portion of the hvy title.

Sam shorter than Rock with longer arms and more proven power over a much longer career. How many fighters did Rock face hitting as hard as Sam standing only 5-6?

I was thinking more about the two different eras of boxing than the fighters themselves.

I really don't think much about comparing fighters across epochs - I would expect any pre-1920s fighter to be overwhelmed by a 'modern style' fighter.

I would expect Marciano to beat every HW Champion from Sullivan to Willard - only when you get to Dempsey do we see fighters displaying movement in both footwork and the upper body that would be competive today. And even these 1920s fighters, Dempsey, Greb, Walker, as great as they were, were only at the beginning of the modern era of fighting, breaking new ground in boxing technique, but still limited in technique when compared to today.

I think fighters like Johnson and Jeffries would find themselves eating way too punches too quickly to survive a Marciano onslaught.

Of course given time to learn the new game I am sure they would measure up - but that's what makes these comparison silly.

Johnson had the size, speed, boxing IQ to be great in any era, but he would first have had to come up learning the game in that era. The 1910 Johnson couldn't compete with any modern champion.

The pre-1920s fighters for the most part lunged and grab. Watching the recent colorized Corbett-Fitzsimmons film only confirmed my beliefs.

Corbett who many consider the poster child of 'scientific boxing' for his day, makes Marciano look like a master technician.

But again this has nothing to do with the individual fighters, they were, like all men, a product of their day, and in their day they were great!

But you can't cross them over to the modern game and that even includes the Holly Three (McVea, Langford, and Jeannette) who I suspect were also lungers and grabbers like their contemporaries. The one existing film suggests that about Langford.

As I said earlier the only thing impressive about the one film we have of Langford and (Jeanette or McVea) is how powerful they looked. Very strong looking fighters, but way too simplistic in style.

[The Old LefHook]

And if you want to get into the context of my original statement, it was about Langford having a chance to beating Marciano under 200lbs. I used Dempsey as a reference and what he said to support this opinion BECAUSE Dempsey was and is held in such high regard. I can't help people have twisted this into some sort of attack on Dempsey. Sorry, I can't change the man's words.

Maybe 6'2" Dempsey quaked at all 5'7" men.

Certain people love not acknowledging that there is a difference between realizing you are not ready, and quaking with fear. They also fail to note that Dempsey was always gracious in handing out accolades. No matter, they say, this time he was afraid, for I saw his actual words.

I was going to start a poll asking whether it is a bit addelt to take Dempsey's statement literally, but I already know what the results would be.

* * * * *

I saw Langford fight a fat white boy who was not in shape in anybody's universe. But Sam had a lot of motion, and fought at any distance.

The bout with Marciano has to be contested in Sam's era under the older rules and customs. They did not wear mouthpieces. Sam chewed on wadded rags, I have read.

Personally, if I give Willie Pep an outside slim chance against Rocky, of course Langford has at least an equal chance. His best shot is to cut Rocky and punch at the cut and otherwise fight like Mike Gibbons, for in a brawl, Sam might be knocked cold as a wedge of cucumber.

Let's be honest: any man who beats Rocky will do it without much need for a mouthpiece. If he actually needs his mouthpiece, that means he is getting hit, so that means he is in all likelihood going to be knocked out as well.

Not a particular name (for now) but a particular style has a chance against Marciano--the ultra-slick boxer, with a decent punch at minimum. Langford is a bit early to have been an ultra-slick boxer, but he did move quite a lot, (in one fight anyway), which is one of the main ingredients I taste in the recipe to beat Marciano. But nothing less than a great fighter can beat Marciano, though weight itself is scarcely of any consequence, style and execution superseding all else. Following, is the type of fighter with a chance against Marciano:

Willie Pep
Kassius Karcellus Klay
Gene Tunney
Sugar Ray Leonard
Billy Conn
Mike Gibbons
Niccolino Locche, etc., etc., etc.


In other words, a slick boxer who can really run. Mayweather's shoulder roll would be useless against Marciano, so he is not on the list and maybe could not run fast enough anyway. I am not even sure Locche was a fast enough runner. He mainly liked to stay cute and close, which might get him K-Oat quick. Everyone else on the list could flat out run.

* * * * *

Selection of arenas is always an important factor in any kind of mythical matchup, involving humans, or otherwise. It is interesting to note that in a real phone booth, Marciano is probably the all-time favorite against anyone but Angus Mackaskill or Andre the giant. Against anyone else he would still have plenty of room to punch with those freakishly short T-Rex arms, whereas Liston or Lennox Lewis would not have any punching room at all, and would be trapped. If it is a street fight inside the phone booth, Andre or Angus will simply twist Rock's head off, once they can get their hand maneuvered into position to do it. But that assumes Rock does not de-nut them first from underneath. Better keep it a boxing match.

Rock's paper mache skin and Sam's own legs are his best chance.

[QueensburyRules]

I was thinking more about the two different eras of boxing than the fighters themselves.

I really don't think much about comparing fighters across epochs - I would expect any pre-1920s fighter to be overwhelmed by a 'modern style' fighter.

I would expect Marciano to beat every HW Champion from Sullivan to Willard - only when you get to Dempsey do we see fighters displaying movement in both footwork and the upper body that would be competive today. And even these 1920s fighters, Dempsey, Greb, Walker, as great as they were, were only at the beginning of the modern era of fighting, breaking new ground in boxing technique, but still limited in technique when compared to today.

I think fighters like Johnson and Jeffries would find themselves eating way too punches too quickly to survive a Marciano onslaught.

Of course given time to learn the new game I am sure they would measure up - but that's what makes these comparison silly.

Johnson had the size, speed, boxing IQ to be great in any era, but he would first have had to come up learning the game in that era. The 1910 Johnson couldn't compete with any modern champion.

The pre-1920s fighters for the most part lunged and grab. Watching the recent colorized Corbett-Fitzsimmons film only confirmed my beliefs.

Corbett who many consider the poster child of 'scientific boxing' for his day, makes Marciano look like a master technician.

But again this has nothing to do with the individual fighters, they were, like all men, a product of their day, and in their day they were great!

But you can't cross them over to the modern game and that even includes the Holly Three (McVea, Langford, and Jeannette) who I suspect were also lungers and grabbers like their contemporaries. The one existing film suggests that about Langford.

As I said earlier the only thing impressive about the one film we have of Langford and (Jeanette or McVea) is how powerful they looked. Very strong looking fighters, but way too simplistic in style.

- - Keep in mind that I've always maintained in making fantasy fights that you have have a meeting point of the rules.

JJJeff could be picked off by savvy Corbett who had Ali foot movement before Ali, and Fitz who was p4p powerful with a good grasp of distance and footwork, but they couldn't tame the brute force and stamina of Jeff. Jeff at 6-1, 230 lbs is just too much bigger and stronger than Rocky who would find in this fight, size indeed does matter, hence the heavy division the unlimited division.

Rock couldn't beat Valuev for just that reason.

[JAB5239]

Maybe 6'2" Dempsey quaked at all 5'7" men.

Certain people love not acknowledging that there is a difference between realizing you are not ready, and quaking with fear. They also fail to note that Dempsey was always gracious in handing out accolades. No matter, they say, this time he was afraid, for I saw his actual words.

I was going to start a poll asking whether it is a bit addelt to take Dempsey's statement literally, but I already know what the results would be.

* * * * *

I saw Langford fight a fat white boy who was not in shape in anybody's universe. But Sam had a lot of motion, and fought at any distance.

The bout with Marciano has to be contested in Sam's era under the older rules and customs. They did not wear mouthpieces. Sam chewed on wadded rags, I have read.

Personally, if I give Willie Pep an outside slim chance against Rocky, of course Langford has at least an equal chance. His best shot is to cut Rocky and punch at the cut and otherwise fight like Mike Gibbons, for in a brawl, Sam might be knocked cold as a wedge of cucumber.

Let's be honest: any man who beats Rocky will do it without much need for a mouthpiece. If he actually needs his mouthpiece, that means he is getting hit, so that means he is in all likelihood going to be knocked out as well.

Not a particular name (for now) but a particular style has a chance against Marciano--the ultra-slick boxer, with a decent punch at minimum. Langford is a bit early to have been an ultra-slick boxer, but he did move quite a lot, (in one fight anyway), which is one of the main ingredients I taste in the recipe to beat Marciano. But nothing less than a great fighter can beat Marciano, though weight itself is scarcely of any consequence, style and execution superseding all else. Following, is the type of fighter with a chance against Marciano:

Willie Pep
Kassius Karcellus Klay
Gene Tunney
Sugar Ray Leonard
Billy Conn
Mike Gibbons
Niccolino Locche, etc., etc., etc.


In other words, a slick boxer who can really run. Mayweather's shoulder roll would be useless against Marciano, so he is not on the list and maybe could not run fast enough anyway. I am not even sure Locche was a fast enough runner. He mainly liked to stay cute and close, which might get him K-Oat quick. Everyone else on the list could flat out run.

* * * * *

Selection of arenas is always an important factor in any kind of mythical matchup, involving humans, or otherwise. It is interesting to note that in a real phone booth, Marciano is probably the all-time favorite against anyone but Angus Mackaskill or Andre the giant. Against anyone else he would still have plenty of room to punch with those freakishly short T-Rex arms, whereas Liston or Lennox Lewis would not have any punching room at all, and would be trapped. If it is a street fight inside the phone booth, Andre or Angus will simply twist Rock's head off, once they can get their hand maneuvered into position to do it. But that assumes Rock does not de-nut them first from underneath. Better keep it a boxing match.

Rock's paper mache skin and Sam's own legs are his best chance.

............