H2H Marciano could beat anyone 200 lbs and below

[Willie Pep 229]

He said this about the proposed fight in 1916 though, not when Sam was blind and looking to cash out with a title fight. It seems you don't realize Dempsey twice rejected the idea of fighting Langford and it was the first proposed fight he was referring to when he said he was scared of Sam. At that time he should have been as Langford was still capable and dangerous while Jack was still losing to Meehan and Flynn that year.

He wasn't ready for the top shelf fighters in 1916 - he was just beginning his run to become a contender.

Why do you believe a fighter has to meet some arbitary standard you have created before he is allowed to be called great?

This is the same situation when we spoke earlier how Holmes wasn't ready for Foreman in '74. He needed a few years to develop. Does that make Holmes scared of Foreman?

When a fighter boasts he can beat anyone he is mocked for not be humble (Lopez); when a fighter is humble (Dempsey) he gets labeled scared. A real BS* double standard. No win situation.

"Scared" - "Fear" - these men put too much on the line to arbitrary be called these name - you know that first hand.

* Double entendre intended.

[travestyny]

He wasn't ready for the top shelf fighters in 1916 - he was just beginning his run to become a contender.

Why do you believe a fighter has to meet some arbitary standard you have created before he is allowed to be called great?

This is the same situation when we spoke earlier how Holmes wasn't ready for Foreman in '74. He needed a few years to develop. Does that make Holmes scared of Foreman?

When a fighter boasts he can beat anyone he is mocked for not be humble (Lopez); when a fighter is humble (Dempsey) he gets labeled scared. A real BS* double standard. No win situation.

"Scared" - "Fear" - these men put too much on the line to arbitrary be called these name - you know that first hand.

* Double entendre intended.

Wouldn't it just be easier to say, "It's understandable why Dempsey would be scared of Langford at that stage of his career"?

I enjoy reading posts in the history section, but I've been purposely trying to stay out of convos about Dempsey because you guys are just too damn sensitive when it comes to him. Why attack (in the loose sense of the word) Jab for simply expressing what Dempsey said with his own mouth? The man admit to it. No need for a deep dive into his psyche. And there really isn't much shame in it. I think you guys just go too far trying to defend every little thing about him that could be perceived as negative.

Side note: What I always found interesting about Dempsey declining that first offered fight with Langford is that his future sparring partner, John Tate, at a very similar stage in his career, accepted it and came away with a draw vs. Langford. Harry Wills was also in a somewhat similar stage in his career when he first fought Langford (I think he had less fights than Demps but a year more in age).



As for the topic so that it's not completely derailed as usual when Dempsey is brought up, Marche was an absolute beast. If anyone had a great chance with him under 200, however, Langford would definitely be on that list. I think both would be capable of pulling out a win against each other. I'm not a big fan of fantasy matchups, so I'll not choose whom I think would get the best of it the majority of the time.

[Willie Pep 229]

Wouldn't it just be easier to say, "It's understandable why Dempsey would be scared of Langford at that stage of his career"?

I enjoy reading posts in the history section, but I've been purposely trying to stay out of convos about Dempsey because you guys are just too damn sensitive when it comes to him. Why attack (in the loose sense of the word) Jab for simply expressing what Dempsey said with his own mouth? The man admit to it. No need for a deep dive into his psyche. And there really isn't much shame in it. I think you guys just go too far trying to defend every little thing about him that could be perceived as negative.

Side note: What I always found interesting about Dempsey declining that first offered fight with Langford is that his future sparring partner, John Tate, at a very similar stage in his career, accepted it and came away with a draw vs. Langford. Harry Wills was also in a somewhat similar stage in his career when he first fought Langford (I think he had less fights than Demps but a year more in age).



As for the topic so that it's not completely derailed as usual when Dempsey is brought up, Marche was an absolute beast. If anyone had a great chance with him under 200, however, Langford would definitely be on that list. I think both would be capable of pulling out a win against each other. I'm not a big fan of fantasy matchups, so I'll not choose whom I think would get the best of it the majority of the time.

Scared is a red flag word designed to get the listener to extrapolate that the man is a coward.

His statement wasn't a nuance about a young Dempsey in awe of one of the great fighters of his day, his too general remark becomes an accusation that Dempsey, at any stage of his career was too frightened to fight Langford.

You're trying to walk back his statement; it is a constant BS tactic (probably unintentional) to make statements that don't express the entire situation thus leading the reader down a rabbit hole of misinformation.

Secondly, quoting Dempsey without explaining the circumstances surrounding the quote once again leads the reader to a false extrapolation that Dempsey at any stage of his career was frightened of Langford when it seems obvious he was just trying to praise a fellow fighter.

Too many fighter quotes on BS are used outside of their historical context and should be clarified.

[JAB5239]

He wasn't ready for the top shelf fighters in 1916 - he was just beginning his run to become a contender.

Why do you believe a fighter has to meet some arbitary standard you have created before he is allowed to be called great?

This is the same situation when we spoke earlier how Holmes wasn't ready for Foreman in '74. He needed a few years to develop. Does that make Holmes scared of Foreman?

When a fighter boasts he can beat anyone he is mocked for not be humble (Lopez); when a fighter is humble (Dempsey) he gets labeled scared. A real BS* double standard. No win situation.

"Scared" - "Fear" - these men put too much on the line to arbitrary be called these name - you know that first hand.

* Double entendre intended.

Wrong. Dempsey said he was scared of Langford, not me. Those are his words. I clearly said Jack was still up and coming, just like Holmes was. I also never said Dempsey wasn't great. At that time he knew he wasn't ready for Langford in my opinion. So I'm not sure where you're getting this double entendre? See post #17 for more clarification.

[travestyny]

Scared is a red flag word designed to get the listener to extrapolate that the man is a coward.

His statement wasn't a nuance about a young Dempsey in awe of one of the great fighters of his day, his too general remark becomes an accusation that Dempsey, at any stage of his career was too frightened to fight Langford.

You're trying to walk back his statement; it is a constant BS tactic (probably unintentional) to make statements that don't express the entire situation thus leading the reader down a rabbit hole of misinformation.

Secondly, quoting Dempsey without explaining the circumstances surrounding the quote once again leads the reader to a false extrapolation that Dempsey at any stage of his career was frightened of Langford when it seems obvious he was just trying to praise a fellow fighter.

Too many fighter quotes on BS are used outside of their historical context and should be clarified.

I must have missed some of his posts because I didn't get the opinion that he was trying to attack Dempsey at all. He said flat out: "I don't know. I can't read Dempseys mind, only the words that were written of what he said, just like you". He also mentioned Dempsey stating that he knew he would get flattened.

He seems to only be going by what Dempsey himself stated, while you seem to be trying to play mind reader and say that Dempsey didn't mean what he said. And you are interpreting Dempsey's words according to your own beliefs.

Isn't that a fair assessment?



I mean I'm not trying to cause a shlt storm regarding Dempsey again, but if you ask me, Dempsey wanted no part of Black fighters since what John Lester Johnson did to him. This is nothing novel, as there were articles written at the time that Dempsey was active that said exactly this same thing. Doesn't make it true, but just shows that opinion was out there a long long time. And the scariest Black fighter there was at that time was Langford, in my opinion. Dempsey himself admit to avoiding black fighters. Remember his line about Joe Jeannette? "I'll fight any White man here but I never agreed to fight a colored boy." That was in an article that Dempsey co-signed and had his name attached to. I'm not saying that proves he was afraid of anyone, but taken in context as you said, being not as experienced, young, and staring down the scariest Black fighter there was when he has shown he wanted to avoid Black fighters for whatever reason...I think that's pretty good evidence that we should take his words at face value.

But again, the last paragraph above is some of my opinion and you don't have to address it if you think it will cause another Dempsey shlt storm. I probably should have just left things at the first part up tho where I ask, "Isn't that a fair assessment?"

[Willie Pep 229]

Wrong. Dempsey said he was scared of Langford, not me. Those are his words. I clearly said Jack was still up and coming, just like Holmes was. I also never said Dempsey wasn't great. At that time he knew he wasn't ready for Langford in my opinion. So I'm not sure where you're getting this double entendre?

Yes, he said it and you avoid the context.

[JAB5239]

Yes, he said it and you avoid the context.

Now you're just making things up. I clearly said in post 17 Dempsey was up and coming at that time. Go back and read the thread.

[JAB5239]

And if you want to get into the context of my original statement, it was about Langford having a chance to beating Marciano under 200lbs. I used Dempsey as a reference and what he said to support this opinion BECAUSE Dempsey was and is held in such high regard. I can't help people have twisted this into some sort of attack on Dempsey. Sorry, I can't change the man's words.

[JAB5239]

Scared is a red flag word designed to get the listener to extrapolate that the man is a coward.

His statement wasn't a nuance about a young Dempsey in awe of one of the great fighters of his day, his too general remark becomes an accusation that Dempsey, at any stage of his career was too frightened to fight Langford.

You're trying to walk back his statement; it is a constant BS tactic (probably unintentional) to make statements that don't express the entire situation thus leading the reader down a rabbit hole of misinformation.

Secondly, quoting Dempsey without explaining the circumstances surrounding the quote once again leads the reader to a false extrapolation that Dempsey at any stage of his career was frightened of Langford when it seems obvious he was just trying to praise a fellow fighter.

Too many fighter quotes on BS are used outside of their historical context and should be clarified.

What are you even talking about? I wasn't even talking about Dempsey to begin with, only using him as a reference as to why Langford would be a tough fight for Marciano. If you want to explain the circumstances of the quote feel free. But that will be your opinion only and not a fact as you don't know what Dempsey was truly thinking or feeling anymore than I do.

[QueensburyRules]

Wouldn't it just be easier to say, "It's understandable why Dempsey would be scared of Langford at that stage of his career"?

I enjoy reading posts in the history section, but I've been purposely trying to stay out of convos about Dempsey because you guys are just too damn sensitive when it comes to him. Why attack (in the loose sense of the word) Jab for simply expressing what Dempsey said with his own mouth? The man admit to it. No need for a deep dive into his psyche. And there really isn't much shame in it. I think you guys just go too far trying to defend every little thing about him that could be perceived as negative.

Side note: What I always found interesting about Dempsey declining that first offered fight with Langford is that his future sparring partner, John Tate, at a very similar stage in his career, accepted it and came away with a draw vs. Langford. Harry Wills was also in a somewhat similar stage in his career when he first fought Langford (I think he had less fights than Demps but a year more in age)

As for the topic so that it's not completely derailed as usual when Dempsey is brought up, Marche was an absolute beast. If anyone had a great chance with him under 200, however, Langford would definitely be on that list. I think both would be capable of pulling out a win against each other. I'm not a big fan of fantasy matchups, so I'll not choose whom I think would get the best of it the majority of the time.

Tate and Wills further along in their career than Dempsey. Dempsey offered Sam after JLJohnson broke his ribs after Dempsey's mgr was shanghaied out of town. By that time Wills had already collectively fought and beat or lost to McVey, Langford, JLJohnson, Battling Jim Johnson and Tate 11x. All Jack would've know coming out of the vacuum of the West was Sam Langford was a legend in his time and nobody to fight with a pair of broken ribs...DUH!!!

Nobody is that stoooopid, even you, but congenitally disingenuous, YES, your major character flaw.