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Why would he lie about the fight being offered to Tunney? Was that going to make him recoup some money?
We know that even at this point, Wills was waiting to fight Dempsey. There was a big outcry by Dempsey because there was to be no fight between that point and his fight with Dempsey at all anyway. Wills told him he already promised Newark a fight.
I listed out a time frame for his actions in another thread. Actually, here it is:
1924 - Sometime in 1924, apparently Harry Wills signs with Rickard to a three fight deal that states if he gets past the three fighters, including Firpo, he will finally get his shot at Dempsey.
Still, Rickard felt the pressure, and in March 1924 he signed Wills to what he hoped would be a poison-pill contract: He would meet Dempsey in September, provided he beat two or three other fighters, including Firpo, in the intervening six months. Only the Firpo fight came off
https://www.nydailynews.com/archives...ticle-1.515138
Only the Firpo fight comes off.
1925 - Then January of 1925, Wills hurts his hand and has to cancel bouts until he fights Weinert in July of 1925, in what was to be yet another match to decide who would fight Dempsey:
Forgot the newspaper source and really don't care to fish it out right now, but you can see the clipping here: https://www.boxingscene.com/forums/b...3#post29471401
After that, Dempsey signs in September of 1925 to finally fight Wills. It is agreed that there will be no fight before they meet for either boxer, except the one that Wills already promised to have in Newark. That takes us up to the even tI'm referencing when apparently an offer was made to Tunney and he declined. If you don't want to believe he declined, then don't believe it. It still has nothing to do with what we all know happened. Dempsey found a way to get out of this bout over and over and over again.On the same card, Harry Wills, negro heavyweight challenger, will fight the season's second important bout in the elimination series by which promoters hope to produce an outstanding challenger for Jack Dempsey. Wills' foe will be Charles Weinert of Newark, N. J. conqueror of Louis FirpoComment
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You should be one to talk about "a few racist members agreeing with you", when your best friend Chollo Vista is the biggest racist on this site who you always agree with, along with your alt Siablo. The only ones calling me racist were the actual racists who had all been BANNED FOR RACISM!!! Or the ones who quietly agree with the other racist posters like Chollo, Jsmith-tsu, Joseph, Tru-boxing-fan, etc. I started a thread in the Dome challenging Chollo or anyone else to post my racist posts...crickets! I have never been banned for racism or any other reason, unlike your Chollo wifey who has been banned more times than I can keep count for racist comments, and not just for the benign reason you cite. This is how I know I am getting under your skin, you slowly break down and start tossing unfounded insults. You're a Farrakhan worshipper, that's all we need to know about you.
You are still going.
DeForest also said what kind of tape he used, and that the tape would cause "unusual punishment" and was the reason Dempsey "ripped Willard to ribbons." There is no reason for me to keep repeating this except that you can't seem to accept it.
I don't need rumblings about Fitz. I have a court case that says Dempsey broke a valid contract for the fight. That's all that's needed.
The last time Floyd reportedly used Xylocaine, the commission was in a video with him about it. So I don't see the issue.
And the bottom line is Wills was waiting for his deserved match with Dempsey. Not only that, but as I stated above, he approved Tunney for his in between fight that was promised to Newark and Tunney declined. Wills deserved the shot at the title and he was attempting to get it done, but Dempsey was ducking.
You are welcome to say whom you think would have been schooled. Dempsey was the one ultimately schooled since he didn't win a round by some accounts. So what does that mean? He still ducked Wills.
You can keep trying to make this about me all you want. "Plenty of members" equals you, a few racists that you agree with, and....pretty sure that's about it. All I get from this is that you're upset that I have plenty of evidence to back up my claims and you don't. It's what your "good poster" buddy 1bad would call an "ad hominem attack." When you have no proof regarding the topic, go with the insults. You're still trying to throw mud because you know I can prove exactly what I say. I'm really not sorry it upsets you.
If you were such a good poster yourself, you'd be able to accept when you are wrong. Like about the Jennette/Johnson match. But you can't, can you? I recall there being a thread made about you in the thunderdome with a number of posters calling you racist trash. But that's irrelevant to this topic.
You can argue the hand wraps until your fingers fall off. You aren't convincing me or a lot of other posters of anything and it's killing you, LOL.
Jeannette himself said he was never given a legitimate shot. As did Langford. You call both of these men liars. Just like you call me and other posters here liars when they won't cave in to your unproven "sources". Dempsey agreed on two occasions to fight Wills, both times the promised money was not delivered. On the third go around, it was Rickard who blocked the fight, not Dempsey. In fact, Dempsey initially refused to sign the Tunney contract because there were some western promoters trying to make the Wills fight for him. Rickard talked him out of it and refused to give Wills the shot.
You seem to think you can apply today's rules of engagement to those of a century ago. Yet you give fighters like Floyd a pass when there is more compelling evidence of his wrong doing than anything Dempsey ever did.
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What about those promoters making the offer to Tunney before the fight is there any source on that?
Thanks for the time line on Wills' actions it explains the limited number of fights.
But regarding the Tunney issue is there a pre-fight offer to Tunney we can see Gibson refuse.
In regards to the promoter bring up Tunney isn't it obvious he was trying to explain away why he staged a stinker. He was trying to put the stink on Gibson/Tunney.Comment
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Something else came to mind. How could Rickard make Wills a three fight guarantee if he didn't have Dempsey signed?
We know he didn't have Dempsey signed because when Dempsey finally announced his return he signs with Fitz and the Chicago outfit. Rickard doesn't balk at this legally so he must not have had Dempsey signed, so how does Wills accept this deal.
Do you have a source for the three fight deal?
Sorry that was meant for T didn't realize I picked the wrong post to reply to.Last edited by Willie Pep 229; 05-17-2021, 12:17 PM.Comment
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I've tried to look more into Tunney and Wills and there doesn't seem to be much.
I see some sources saying Wills accepted matches with him. I see Tunney claiming that Wills declined matches with him. I see Rickard claiming that Mullins had already signed up Wills for Tunney. I see articles about the two sides coming together to ponder the match. But I don't see any offers from either side.
I did find a version of that article that mentions Tunney's decline that is not "anonymous," so maybe that will float Ghost of Dempsey's boat.
It also references Tunny claiming he was idle because of Wills refusing to accept his challenge (no idea if that means there was an actual offer or just him being willing to fight Wills), so I think the article is fair to both sides:
Nov. 4 1925 by Henry L Farrell
l6KkUW.png
I wanted to include the entire article to be fair, but as such, this is as big as I could get it without it being HUGE. So I'll post the entire page in PDF format for you to look at the entire article.
Tunney has been complaining that the refusal of Wills to accept his challenge has forced him to idelness.
Newark Promoters, who staged the recent flop between Wills and Floyd Johnson, said that Wills was willing to accept Tunney for that date, but that Gibson refused, on the grounds that it was an outdoor attraction and that neither of the fighters could get the purse out of an armory that the match was worth.
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That source was the edit.....Daily News (not NY Times) article on that website. It claims that it was a "poison pill contract." I'm not sure what that means in regards to boxing. In basketball, it's when they sign a player to an extension, only to trade him before the extension kicks in. I'm guessing it was meant that after the three fights Rickard was going to agree to get him the Dempsey bout in good faith. I've no idea why it didn't happen (meaning the other 2 fights...other than Wills was injured and then probably realized it was full of shlt. lol).Last edited by travestyny; 05-17-2021, 12:49 PM.Comment
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These are the first two:
In early 1922, a national poll placed Harry Wills as the preferred next challenger for Dempsey, just edging out contenders Tommy Gibbons and Bill Brennan. It suggested that the public was ready for an African-American to fight for the heavyweight title once again. Negotiations began. Dempsey himself lobbied for the fight, writes Roger Khan in the biography A Flame of Pure Fire, and his handlers relented, but conditionally. On June 11, 1922, Dempsey and Wills put pens to contracts. But the powerful New York Commissioner William Muldoon did not want the fight to take place in New York. To complicate matters further, Muldoon and promoter Tex Rickard clashed over, of all things, ticket prices. Muldoon wanted 40,000 tickets fixed at $2.00 for the “working people.” Rickard refused. In retaliation, Muldoon blocked the Dempsey-Wills fight from taking place in New York, even threatening to halt all heavyweight fights until prices came down. Frustrated, Rickard traveled to several states—even north to Montreal—to find a welcoming venue. None wanted the fight or had the money to host the event. When the contract deadline ran out, Wills sued. From then until 1926, as the legal proceedings dragged on, a potential Dempsey-Wills fight was often in the news as either under consideration, being planned, or “scheduled for next year,” but never became a done deal.
There’s no doubt that Wills deserved a title fight, and even Dempsey expressed his regrets at not having the fight to set the record straight. The two respected each other. It was an injustice to Wills and to history. But while Dempsey’s persona was larger than life, control over his career was with Kearns and Rickard. It wasn’t his decision to make. He deferred to his managers for nearly all business matters, and if Dempsey lobbied, as he did to fight Wills in 1922, Rickard would talk him out of it. There is no indication in any testimony that Dempsey was afraid of Wills. No better proof of this came than when Dempsey and Wills signed to fight for the second time.
By March 1925, the New York Commission had reversed its position on sanctioning a Dempsey-Wills match. The Commission now declared Wills as Dempsey’s mandatory challenger and threatened to place Dempsey on the ineligible list if he did not comply. The Associated Press reported on July 17, 1925, that Dempsey appeared before the New York Licensing Commission and formally accepted Wills’ challenge. With Kearns now out of the picture, Dempsey was managing himself. On his own, with a new promoter, Dempsey made a genuine good faith effort to be matched with Wills.
Show Me The Money
Midwestern promoter Floyd Fitzsimmons, who had produced Dempsey-Miske fight in 1920, proposed a Dempsey-Wills fight to be held in Michigan City, Indiana. Dempsey was guaranteed $1,000,000 for the fight with $300,000 due upon signing. Dempsey accepted the offer. On September 28, 1925, Wills, Dempsey, the promoter and investors met for the contract ceremony. The event made headlines. Wills received a check for $50,000. Fitzsimmons told Dempsey he would get his check the following day. The next morning, Dempsey accompanied Fitzsimmons to the bank, ready to receive the down payment. Fitzsimmons handed Dempsey a check not for $300,000 but only $25,000. “It’s all I got right now, but there’s plenty more where that came from,” said Fitzsimmons. Still willing to proceed, Dempsey asked for cash instead: “I want to see this in green…and when you give me the other two-seven-five, I’ll give you the contract. Signed.” As the tellers counted out the cash, the issuing bank was called and reported back that the Fitzsimmons account was empty. The check bounced. Fitzsimmons couldn’t even deliver one dime of a down payment. Dempsey walked. Not only had the fight fallen through again, but now Dempsey was no longer licensed to fight in New York.
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To add to the end of the story Fitz then got himself out of the Chicago deal and ends up in Dempsey's camp as his PR guy.
Fitz and Dempsey went way back as friends. After the Miske fight Dempsey bought Fitz's wife a 14K car as a gift. This is at a time when a Model T went for 650.
My conjecture is that when those checks bounce Fitz realized the Chicago people couldn't be trusted for the money and both he and Dempsry walked away.
As I said he appears later in Dempsey's camp for the Tunney fight.
Edit: It was a 13K car - Sept. 9th 1920 NYTLast edited by Willie Pep 229; 05-17-2021, 12:58 PM.Comment
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We know the NY offer was BS. No date, no venue. Nothing but games.
These are the first two:
In early 1922, a national poll placed Harry Wills as the preferred next challenger for Dempsey, just edging out contenders Tommy Gibbons and Bill Brennan. It suggested that the public was ready for an African-American to fight for the heavyweight title once again. Negotiations began. Dempsey himself lobbied for the fight, writes Roger Khan in the biography A Flame of Pure Fire, and his handlers relented, but conditionally. On June 11, 1922, Dempsey and Wills put pens to contracts. But the powerful New York Commissioner William Muldoon did not want the fight to take place in New York. To complicate matters further, Muldoon and promoter Tex Rickard clashed over, of all things, ticket prices. Muldoon wanted 40,000 tickets fixed at $2.00 for the “working people.” Rickard refused. In retaliation, Muldoon blocked the Dempsey-Wills fight from taking place in New York, even threatening to halt all heavyweight fights until prices came down. Frustrated, Rickard traveled to several states—even north to Montreal—to find a welcoming venue. None wanted the fight or had the money to host the event. When the contract deadline ran out, Wills sued. From then until 1926, as the legal proceedings dragged on, a potential Dempsey-Wills fight was often in the news as either under consideration, being planned, or “scheduled for next year,” but never became a done deal.
There’s no doubt that Wills deserved a title fight, and even Dempsey expressed his regrets at not having the fight to set the record straight. The two respected each other. It was an injustice to Wills and to history. But while Dempsey’s persona was larger than life, control over his career was with Kearns and Rickard. It wasn’t his decision to make. He deferred to his managers for nearly all business matters, and if Dempsey lobbied, as he did to fight Wills in 1922, Rickard would talk him out of it. There is no indication in any testimony that Dempsey was afraid of Wills. No better proof of this came than when Dempsey and Wills signed to fight for the second time.
By March 1925, the New York Commission had reversed its position on sanctioning a Dempsey-Wills match. The Commission now declared Wills as Dempsey’s mandatory challenger and threatened to place Dempsey on the ineligible list if he did not comply. The Associated Press reported on July 17, 1925, that Dempsey appeared before the New York Licensing Commission and formally accepted Wills’ challenge. With Kearns now out of the picture, Dempsey was managing himself. On his own, with a new promoter, Dempsey made a genuine good faith effort to be matched with Wills.
Show Me The Money
Midwestern promoter Floyd Fitzsimmons, who had produced Dempsey-Miske fight in 1920, proposed a Dempsey-Wills fight to be held in Michigan City, Indiana. Dempsey was guaranteed $1,000,000 for the fight with $300,000 due upon signing. Dempsey accepted the offer. On September 28, 1925, Wills, Dempsey, the promoter and investors met for the contract ceremony. The event made headlines. Wills received a check for $50,000. Fitzsimmons told Dempsey he would get his check the following day. The next morning, Dempsey accompanied Fitzsimmons to the bank, ready to receive the down payment. Fitzsimmons handed Dempsey a check not for $300,000 but only $25,000. “It’s all I got right now, but there’s plenty more where that came from,” said Fitzsimmons. Still willing to proceed, Dempsey asked for cash instead: “I want to see this in green…and when you give me the other two-seven-five, I’ll give you the contract. Signed.” As the tellers counted out the cash, the issuing bank was called and reported back that the Fitzsimmons account was empty. The check bounced. Fitzsimmons couldn’t even deliver one dime of a down payment. Dempsey walked. Not only had the fight fallen through again, but now Dempsey was no longer licensed to fight in New York.
It glances over 1923 when Montreal was in the mix and Dempsey decided he couldn't get into shape. Rickard apparently was down with that offer.
Then the Fitz offer where apparently Fitz fumbled, and a member of Dempsey's team walked out over this fumble saying that someone was playing games. Though he didn't think it was Fitz. Fitz, funny enough, claimed the guy didn't know what he was talking about...though the guy didn't even implicate Fitz in the fumble. Very su****ious.
Then Fitz passed to the Chicago Coliseum Club which kept their side of the bargain, and Dempsey walked out on the contract.
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