What Were Harry Wills' Best Wins?

[billeau2]

It's Henry Okazaki. Not Osaka.

Danzan Ryu was Wally Jay's foundation from which he created Small Circle Ju Jutsu.

His name is Japanese... spelling is really arbitrary. Ju Jitsu, Ju Jutsu, Jiu Jitsu... all referring to a character meaning the ability to redistribute force efficiently, but thanks for the spelling lesson.

Look up who taught Jay... In martial arts you go by the lineage originator... that would be? And your talking to someone who has met Wallie Kahill, etc, who are co-founders from Danzan and
wallue Jay's people.

[ShoulderRoll]

His name is Japanese... spelling is really arbitrary. Ju Jitsu, Ju Jutsu, Jiu Jitsu... all referring to a character meaning the ability to redistribute force efficiently, but thanks for the spelling lesson.

Look up who taught Jay... In martial arts you go by the lineage originator... that would be? And your talking to someone who has met Wallie Kahill, etc, who are co-founders from Danzan and
wallue Jay's people.

Willy Cahill you mean?

It's a sign of respect to get people's name's right as well as makes it easier for others to do follow up research if they are so inclined.

[travestyny]

When we look at the Black Fighters guild, so to speak... we have slightly different conditions for evaluating talent, and to me this is one of those "gems" researchers asking about hypothetical matches should take advantage of... Here we have a situation with what is, essentially, a very limited, very talented pool of fighters, who know intimately the strengths and weaknesses of each other.

So what does this prove? Lets look at Godfrey. He had a bad outing, might have had others prior too, but eventually? he got some wins. It would seem that the general level of talent made fighters like McVay, able to get victories against fighters considered much more talented. As a matter of fact we see a real random sample when we look at who beat who in this pool.

This suggests to me that eventually if fighters fought each other repeatedly, we would see some fighters, not initially considered great, beat other great fighters...I use the word "great" because to do this a fighter would have to be good enough to exploit certain things and win against guys who were ATG's.

Of course the converse applies: Charley Burley destroyed Archie Moore... What if they had fought more times? I would think Archie would do better.

These limited pools can tell us a lot IMO.

I agree. Imagine if all of these guys, white and black, were allowed to fight each other freely and repeatedly. As they learn each other and adjust, we can really see who was the cream of the crop. But as it was, it just wasn't allowed...and all over a silly thing like race.

I've just finished reading up more on Godfrey, Wills, Tunney...and it's the same old mess. Godfrey's manager admitting that no one would offer enough money for Wills to be willing to face Godfrey because there wasn't a real care about two black guys fighting. Tunney drawing the color line on everyone...except Wills, when challenged by Godfrey. And then when Wills declined Tunney because he wanted his title fight against Dempsey, who refused to fight him (perceivably because he was Black), Tunney stating that if he wins the title he will now include Wills in his drawing of the color-line.

It's enough to make your head spin.

[travestyny]

Wills should have fought Godfrey, he declined, and he didn't want Tunney either.

I've been looking over some things, and I think you might find this interesting. Bear with me and check this out.

So with regards to Godfrey, he comes on the scene in 1923. Around this time, Godfrey's manager states that he can't get Godfrey into the ring with Wills because no promoter is willing to put up enough money for Wills to fight because they are both black. He states he can only get a guarantee of $5000 for Wills.

Check the last paragraph here:

And here:

Sometime in 1924, apparently Harry Wills signs with Rickard to a three fight deal that states if he gets past the three fighters, including Firpo, he will finally get his shot at Dempsey.

Still, Rickard felt the pressure, and in March 1924 he signed Wills to what he hoped would be a poison-pill contract: He would meet Dempsey in September, provided he beat two or three other fighters, including Firpo, in the intervening six months. Only the Firpo fight came off

https://www.nydailynews.com/archives...ticle-1.515138

Then January of 1925, Wills hurts his hand and has to cancel bouts until he fights Weinert in July of 1925, in what was to be yet another match to decide who would fight Dempsey:

On the same card, Harry Wills, negro heavyweight challenger, will fight the season's second important bout in the elimination series by which promoters hope to produce an outstanding challenger for Jack Dempsey. Wills' foe will be Charles Weinert of Newark, N. J. conqueror of Louis Firpo

After that, Dempsey signs in September of 1925 to finally fight Wills. It is agreed that there will be no fight before they meet for either boxer, except the one that Wills already promised to have in Newark. Here is something interesting. Apparently, Wills was open to fighting Gene Tunney for this bout, but Tunney's manager declined because he didn't feel there would be enough money as it was to be an outdoor fight:

Here is Tunney drawing the color line on everyone except Wills when challenged by Godfrey...and the last paragraph talks about his management declining the bout in Jersey.

Interesting side note: Tunney also drew the color line on Wills after he won the championship.

Newark promoters, who staged the recent flop between Wills and Floyd Johnson, said Wills was willing to accept Tunney for that date, but that Gibson refused on the grounds that it was an outdoor attraction and that neither of the fighters could get the purse out of an armory that the match was worth.

In September, the check that was promised Dempsey bounces, the contract is renegotiated, and in March of 1926 Dempsey signs to fight Wills in Chicago, and the two agree to have no fights until the match. Dempsey then breaks the contract in July even though the money for the fight was found to be present, and Dempsey gets around an injunction stopping him from fighting Tunney by moving the Tunney fight to Philly.

Harry Wills then agrees to fight Jack Sharkey who is fresh off a win over...George Godfrey.


Thought it was interesting how this all went full circle.

[billeau2]

Willy Cahill you mean?

It's a sign of respect to get people's name's right as well as makes it easier for others to do follow up research if they are so inclined.

it is also a sign of intelligence and good breeding to get a clue about things... Like for example, why would a poster who seems to post fairly intelligently have a problem with spelling? I can let you figure out the rest bozo. People have disabilities that involve letters, look it up.

[billeau2]

I agree. Imagine if all of these guys, white and black, were allowed to fight each other freely and repeatedly. As they learn each other and adjust, we can really see who was the cream of the crop. But as it was, it just wasn't allowed...and all over a silly thing like race.

I've just finished reading up more on Godfrey, Wills, Tunney...and it's the same old mess. Godfrey's manager admitting that no one would offer enough money for Wills to be willing to face Godfrey because there wasn't a real care about two black guys fighting. Tunney drawing the color line on everyone...except Wills, when challenged by Godfrey. And then when Wills declined Tunney because he wanted his title fight against Dempsey, who refused to fight him (perceivably because he was Black), Tunney stating that if he wins the title he will now include Wills in his drawing of the color-line.

It's enough to make your head spin.

It has always had that head spinning quality.

[ShoulderRoll]

it is also a sign of intelligence and good breeding to get a clue about things... Like for example, why would a poster who seems to post fairly intelligently have a problem with spelling? I can let you figure out the rest bozo. People have disabilities that involve letters, look it up.

You're right. Spelling is not that important.

Let's get back to the thread topic about who were Henry Walls' best wins.

If you are dyslexic then just say that instead of saying that spelling is arbitrary for Japanese names.

[billeau2]

You're right. Spelling is not that important.

Let's get back to the thread topic about who were Henry Walls' best wins.

If you are dyslexic then you get a pass I guess.

Its all good...

[travestyny]

You're right. Spelling is not that important.

Let's get back to the thread topic about who were Henry Walls' best wins.

If you are dyslexic then just say that instead of saying that spelling is arbitrary for Japanese names.

Its all good...

[Dr. Z]

travestyny, Very good. Wills had to have know he wasn't getting a shot vs. Dempsey. Godfrey's manager did make several offers to get Wills into the ring. It never happened. That's on Wills. Tunney also wanted to fight Wills before coming a champion. As Champion Tunney was one and done. He could have had a really good legacy as the heavyweight champion, but gave up boxing too soon. That worked out well for him, but not the fans

The color line is a complicated topic. The Champion can fight anywhere in the world. One thing about boxing that hasn't changed is this. What a fighter says and does can be very different once enough money is in it for him.