Who's prime is more overrated ?

[StarshipTrooper]

Well, you'll never read any post of mine claiming that. But the point is I can go back and look at fighters like Dempsey who many claim to be one of the greatest and tear his resume to shreds. Even more so than Tyson's. It works both ways.Old timers tend to favor people from their era just like the younger fans favor people from their's. I have np problem with it until they become unrealistic and too biased.

I can tear any fighter's resume to pieces from any era and have done so on numerous occasions when a point needed to be made.

Poet

[joseph5620]

I can tear any fighter's resume to pieces from any era and have done so on numerous occasions when a point needed to be made.

Poet

The issue is a comparison between two fighters. On paper Tyson has a better resume than Dempsey's but you'll see a lot more people claiming Tyson is overrated. But some of the same people will never mention Dempsey's overrated resume. As much hate as I probably will get for saying it, I would put Wlad Klitschko's resume over Dempsey. Dempsey defended his title 5 times in 7 years and lost to the only great fighter he ever faced. Twice. Another top heavyweight he faced(Jack Sharkey) was beating Dempsey handily until Dempsey hit him low. When Sharkey complained to the ref, Dempsey clocked him. And the fact that Jess Williard is one of the worst heavyweight champions ever is not debatable imo.

[StarshipTrooper]

The issue is a comparison between two fighters. On paper Tyson has a better resume than Dempsey's but you'll see a lot more people claiming Tyson is overrated but some of the same people will never mention Dempsey's overrated resume. As much hate as I probably will get for saying I would put Wlad Klitschko's resume over Dempsey. Dempsey defended his title 5 times in 7 years and lost to the only great fighter he ever faced. Twice. Another top heavyweight he faced(Jack Sharkey) was beating Dempsey handily until Dempsey hit him low. When Sharkey complained to the ref, Dempsey clocked him. And the fact that Jess Williard is one of the worst heavyweight champions ever is not debatable imo.

And the great fighters that Wlad Klitschko has faced? Oh, that's right! He hasn't faced any! The truth of the matter is that Tyson faced no in-prime greats during his own prime either. If you give Tyson a pass for getting clubbed like a baby seal by Evander Holyfield because Mike was past-prime then the same applies to Dempsey who was past-prime when he faced Tunney and Sharkey. You can't apply the one standard to Tyson and Wlad then a different one to Dempsey.

Poet

[them_apples]

And the great fighters that Wlad Klitschko has faced? Oh, that's right! He hasn't faced any! The truth of the matter is that Tyson faced no in-prime greats during his own prime either. If you give Tyson a pass for getting clubbed like a baby seal by Evander Holyfield because Mike was past-prime then the same applies to Dempsey who was past-prime when he faced Tunney and Sharkey. You can't apply the one standard to Tyson and Wlad then a different one to Dempsey.

Poet

Lots of good fighters didn't beat prime greats in their life time. Holmes, Liston, did Holyfield even beat any? ( I guess you could argue Tyson)

Ali beat some, Frazier did...

I hardly know of any boxers at HW that beat ATG's in their prime. Most finished off past greats.

[joseph5620]

And the great fighters that Wlad Klitschko has faced? Oh, that's right! He hasn't faced any! The truth of the matter is that Tyson faced no in-prime greats during his own prime either. If you give Tyson a pass for getting clubbed like a baby seal by Evander Holyfield because Mike was past-prime then the same applies to Dempsey who was past-prime when he faced Tunney and Sharkey. You can't apply the one standard to Tyson and Wlad then a different one to Dempsey.

Poet

And Vice versa. You can't claim that Dempsey was one of the greatest but **** on Tyson and Klitschko. At least those two are/were active heavyweight champions fighting everybody in their division while Dempsey found low budget hollywood movies and circuses more to his liking. I don't rate any of the three top 10 all time but the same standards should apply to ALL of them.

[TheGreatA]

Lots of good fighters didn't beat prime greats in their life time. Holmes, Liston, did Holyfield even beat any? ( I guess you could argue Tyson)

Ali beat some, Frazier did...

I hardly know of any boxers at HW that beat ATG's in their prime. Most finished off past greats.

Agreed. I remember KOTF (a member who posts here) having this quote as his signature:

Using the illogic of the "you must beat a prime great to be great", then how is Liston great? Because he beat Patterson? Who did Patterson beat that was great and in his prime? Therefore, Ali hadn't proven that he was great by 71, when he lost to Frazier. Frazier, therefore, isn't a "great", since Ali hadn't proven that he was "great" by not beating a prime great fighter.

[joseph5620]

Lots of good fighters didn't beat prime greats in their life time. Holmes, Liston, did Holyfield even beat any? ( I guess you could argue Tyson)

Ali beat some, Frazier did...

I hardly know of any boxers at HW that beat ATG's in their prime. Most finished off past greats.

You're right. Ali is one of the few who did that. And that was not prime Ali who Frazier beat.

[StarshipTrooper]

And Vice versa. You can't claim that Dempsey is one of the greatest but **** on Tyson and Klitschko. At least those two are/were active heavyweight champions fighting everybody in their division while Dempsey found low budget hollywood movies and circuses more to his liking. I don't rate any of the three top 10 all time but the same standards should apply to ALL of them.

Except that resume is only one component I use when rating fighters. I'm not a single issue voter. In Wlad's case there's more things wrong with him than just the fact that he fights in the worst Heavyweight era since weight classes were invented.

Poet

[them_apples]

You're right. Ali is one of the few who did that. And that was not prime Ali who Frazier beat.

It wasn't a prime Ali, but it was a pretty damn good version. all 3 fights were competitive.

[them_apples]

Except that resume is only one component I use when rating fighters. I'm not a single issue voter. In Wlad's case there's more things wrong with him than just the fact that he fights in the worst Heavyweight era since weight classes were invented.

Poet

You know i'm not a fan of Wlad, but he will eventually make some peoples ATg lists ( not mine) because he was dominant in this era. Even if this is a below average era for HW's he still has dominated it. I wouldn't give him much of a chance against other greats though.

You can't have guys like Dempsey and Johnson on an ATG list either though, they have just as many loopholes as Wlad's resume, such as poor competition, bad losses etc.