Who's prime is more overrated ?

[TheGreatA]

dont forget Great A he had 6 to 8 oz gloves on, joe louis was never as quick as mike:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRs5budNvxg

im not doubint louis had hand speed, but tyson was a league above in speed.

That was a 14 year old Tyson...

[ironalex]

That was a 14 year old Tyson...

he was 15 i believe, and yes, that goes to show his speed as a kid, he got quicker when he was nearer his prime

[ironalex]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9R9KM_YJFc

check out the 55 second mark in particular, those look like 16s on. Louis could not have thrown it with that speed.

[TheGreatA]

he was 15 i believe, and yes, that goes to show his speed as a kid, he got quicker when he was nearer his prime

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9R9KM_YJFc

check out the 55 second mark in particular, those look like 16s on. Louis could not have thrown it with that speed.

Tyson did not get faster. They say that Louis was a quick mover in the amateurs but that matters very little when discussing them as professional fighters.

Here's Tyson in his prime. He is certainly quick but not any quicker than what is shown of Louis against Abe Simon:

[ironalex]

Berbick moved quite a lot, therefore Tysons full speed could not be shown, check out the Tyson johnson fight...whereas Louis was fighting in 6oz gloves, and against a more stationary less hard to hit target, but you have your opinion and i respect that.

[Poet682006]

For starters Tyson was limited by his body type. Having a short reach he was locked into fighting one way which left him with no "plan B" if things didn't go right (this is the same reason Marciano and Frazier would never be number one). His stocky build and non-existent neck also played against him as it left him unable to turn his upper body adequetly to deal with someone giving him angles. This left him with the choice of either turning his entire body to position himself or punching ineffectively from a poor postition. Later, as he muscled up more, he was also unable to punch while turning (a key argument against weight lifting for fighters). Short-armed pressure fighters have a serious vulnerability against fighters like George Foreman and Sonny Liston and that in and of itself would preclude them from being the Heavyweight GOAT. Fighters like Tyson, Marciano, and Frazier could fight Foreman 100 times and they would LOSE the vast majority of them. The limitations of their bodies make it a nightmare stylistic matchup for them. Cuss himself told Tyson repeatedly he could never hope to beat Foreman: Someone a past-prime Ali defeated with relative ease.

While Tyson had quick feet straight ahead he was relatively clumsy and slow-afoot laterally. This was trouble against a mover with more in mind than mere survival (ie. someone using movement offensively as opposed to running for their lives).

As is apparent from watching any of Tyson's fights where the opponent wasn't focusing solely on survival Mike was NOT that difficult to hit. The idea Tyson was some kind of defensive wiz was a myth started by Hank Kaplan for whom Tyson could do no wrong. Even members of the D'Amato/Rooney team said that was a myth, that Tyson's offense was his defense and fighters running like hell simply aren't going to score with any regularity. Those chickens came home to roost in the Douglas fight.

Additionally, Tyson was not a good inside fighter as someone with his body type is normally expected to be. Tyson wanted to fight at mid-range where he could leap into his punches for maximum leverage. Them Apples is something of an expert on Tyson and his style (and, I might add, a Tyson FAN rather than a nuthugger) and can confirm this. Watching film of his fights with a critical eye will also confirm this. Tyson would tie up on the inside to provoke the ref into breaking the fighters and putting Tyson back out at the range he was comfortable at (this is partly a point in Tyson's favor as he conserved energy by allowing the referee to force the break rather than working his way back out). This is one of the reasons why Tyson was not a consistant body-puncher: Fighting from mid-range practically begs a fighter to head-hunt.....which was what Tyson wanted in any case.

Finally, Tyson's endurance was not that good. Like a young Foreman Tyson consistantly gassed around the 6th or 7th round in those fights that went that far. He slowed down rapidly after that point and relied on his early points lead and the fact that his opponent was usually in survival mode to secure the decision (at that point, against an opponent content to merely survive, Tyson could pick off some of the late rounds without actually doing anything other than being aggressive). Against a fighter who could absorb or deflect Tyson's early aggression AND hit him back was would simply take over after the mid-point of the fight.

Now. You wanted an analysis of Tyson's flaws and you now have it. Next?

Poet

The analysis of Tyson's flaws that marshmellowalex lacks the intellectual capacity to respond to intelligently.

Poet

[TheGreatA]

Berbick moved quite a lot, therefore Tysons full speed could not be shown, check out the Tyson johnson fight...whereas Louis was fighting in 6oz gloves, and against a more stationary less hard to hit target, but you have your opinion and i respect that.

Berbick was hardly a defensive artist though. I saw Tyson landing just about every punch he threw on him. He was basically a tough, strong, awkward guy just like Abe Simon was, with very little "finesse".

Tyson did destroy Michael Jack Johnson but he was not the only man to do it. Johnson was knocked out 17 times.

Louis looked like Sugar Ray Robinson against some of the lesser opponents he fought but we have to go by the fighters' best performances against credible opposition.

I'm not going to claim that I know who was faster than the other but I don't think it's ridiculous to assume that Louis' handspeed was comparable to Tyson's. Both were certainly very quick with their hands.

[ironalex]

look people, think what you think, its all opinions...i cannot be bothered to reply anymore.

[Poet682006]

look people, think what you think, its all opinions...i cannot be bothered to reply anymore.

Ah yes.....A quitter just like Witter

Poet

[them_apples]

Tyson did not get faster. They say that Louis was a quick mover in the amateurs but that matters very little when discussing them as professional fighters.

Here's Tyson in his prime. He is certainly quick but not any quicker than what is shown of Louis against Abe Simon:

are you kidding? you are one of the most knowledgeable posters on here but Louis isn't anywhere close in the same department when it comes to speed. not to mention mike is moving that fast and he has a good 17-20 natural pounds on Louis.

Go show those videos to the average person and ask who you think looks faster. I think it's a case of you convincing yourself that Louis was just as quick.

I'm speaking only about hand speed here. The only guy quicker than him was prime Ali and probably a prime Holmes, mainly because they were lighter as well, he was thick. I don't even think a comeback Ali was as quick as prime Mike.

Patterson get's a shout to.

EDIT: and you are showing Louis vs Abe Simon, to make Louis look fast. Then you show mike vs Berbick (average).

show Tyson vs somebody slow and he will look fast as hell to.