Who's prime is more overrated ?

[TheGreatA]

are you kidding? you are one of the most knowledgeable posters on here but Louis isn't anywhere close in the same department when it comes to speed. not to mention mike is moving that fast and he has a good 17-20 natural pounds on Louis.

Go show those videos to the average person and ask who you think looks faster. I think it's a case of you convincing yourself that Louis was just as quick.

I'm speaking only about hand speed here. The only guy quicker than him was prime Ali and probably a prime Holmes, mainly because they were lighter as well, he was thick. I don't even think a comeback Ali was as quick as prime Mike.

Patterson get's a shout to.

EDIT: and you are showing Louis vs Abe Simon, to make Louis look fast. Then you show mike vs Berbick (average).

show Tyson vs somebody slow and he will look fast as hell to.

As I said in my original response:

Call me crazy but I think Louis' handspeed was atleast comparable to Tyson's. We all know about his slowly shuffling feet but as Ali said, "Louis was fast from here on up" while pointing at his waist.

I'm not talking about overall speed, only the handspeed. Everyone knows that Louis had slow feet and was not one to use much upperbody movement.

But his hands were very quick in my opinion.

Tyson by the way only had 5 pounds on Louis in some of the fights I showed. Louis was 208 against Simon, Tyson was 213 against Ribalta, so that's not a huge difference. Tyson must have been around 180-190 lbs in the video of a 14-15 year old Tyson training with Atlas.

Berbick's speed was not average. He was a sluggish, awkward fighter, not as slow as the huge, lumbering Simon, but almost. This is why I chose to show these fights, because they were both in there against slow opponents.

Even an ancient Ali was faster than Berbick:



If you want to look at Louis against fighters on the level of Tyson's early opposition, then look at his fights against Levinsky and Ramage (when Louis was 20-21 years old). He doesn't look much different from Tyson, devastating his opposition in one round knockouts. Those fights don't tell much.

Tony Tubbs in my opinion held a speed advantage over Tyson but it was obvious who had the advantage in power:

[TheGreatA]

I don't think there's any question that Patterson was faster than Tyson, Tyson himself admitted that much. Then again Patterson was much lighter.


3:20

[them_apples]

As I said in my original response:



I'm not talking about overall speed, only the handspeed. Everyone knows that Louis had slow feet and was not one to use much upperbody movement.

But his hands were very quick in my opinion.

Tyson by the way only had 5 pounds on Louis in some of the fights I showed. Louis was 208 against Simon, Tyson was 213 against Ribalta, so that's not a huge difference. Tyson must have been around 180-190 lbs in the video of a 14-15 year old Tyson training with Atlas.

Berbick's speed was not average. He was a sluggish, awkward fighter, not as slow as the huge, lumbering Simon, but almost. This is why I chose to show these fights, because they were both in there against slow opponents.

Even an ancient Ali was faster than Berbick:



If you want to look at Louis against fighters on the level of Tyson's early opposition, then look at his fights against Levinsky and Ramage (when Louis was 20-21 years old). He doesn't look much different from Tyson, devastating his opposition in one round knockouts. Those fights don't tell much.

Tony Tubbs in my opinion held a speed advantage over Tyson but it was obvious who had the advantage in power:

you take their prime weight and Tyson is 217, Louis is 200. I don't remember Tyson being 213 ever, in almost all of his title fights he was 217 pre prison.

I see your point on hand speed though.

I just don't agree with the weight, you can't pick one fighters lowest and another fighters highest to decide size.

I think even Foreman started at what 212?

[TheGreatA]

you take their prime weight and Tyson is 217, Louis is 200. I don't remember Tyson being 213 ever, in almost all of his title fights he was 217 pre prison.

I see your point on hand speed though.

I just don't agree with the weight, you can't pick one fighters lowest and another fighters highest to decide size.

I think even Foreman started at what 212?

I'm not saying that Louis was as big as Tyson but I picked these two particular fights because there was not such a huge difference in weight to make much of a difference. Tyson did weigh 213 for the Ribalta fight.

I also think that Louis looked the most solid, physically, that he ever was against Abe Simon the second time. Unfortunately he had to go to the army after this bout, and came back a diminished fighter.





Picture from the Baer rematch:

[IMG]http://coxscorner.tripod.com/loui****s/louis_baer23.jpg[/IMG]

[them_apples]

I'm not saying that Louis was as big as Tyson but I picked these two particular fights because there was not such a huge difference in weight to make much of a difference. Tyson did weigh 213 for the Ribalta fight.

I also think that Louis looked the most solid, physically, that he ever was against Abe Simon the second time. Unfortunately he had to go to the army after this bout, and came back a diminished fighter.





Picture from the Baer rematch:

[IMG]http://coxscorner.tripod.com/loui****s/louis_baer23.jpg[/IMG]

yea he does look pretty strong in those pictures, wonder if he was hitting the weights.

[Poet682006]

yea he does look pretty strong in those pictures, wonder if he was hitting the weights.

No, if I remember right Louis would chop wood in training camp.

Poet

[Poet682006]

I'm not saying that Louis was as big as Tyson but I picked these two particular fights because there was not such a huge difference in weight to make much of a difference. Tyson did weigh 213 for the Ribalta fight.

And at 215 in several of his in-prime fights. In any case I tend to think that for Heavyweights any weight difference of less than 10 pounds is negligable. That sort of thing looms larger in the lighter weight classes where a pound is a greater percentage of total body weight. In other words, then pounds has a much greater impact when a fighter weighs 120 pounds than when a fighter weighs 220.

Poet

[Dynamite Kid]

I cant believe this thread is still running

I think its mark of two things, either Mike Tyson is extremely overrated by his fans or other fans are not giving him his due.

I tend to think the former is true because if Mike was that great he would not need defending, his record would stand up to scrutiny with facts!! not opinion.

[Poet682006]

I cant believe this thread is still running

I think its mark of two things, either Mike Tyson is extremely overrated by his fans or other fans are not giving him his due.

I tend to think the former is true because if Mike was that great he would not need defending, his record would stand up to scrutiny with facts!! not opinion.

Naw, the thread is pretty much done.....marshmellowalex has said he's done with us ignant "old peeps" (ie. he's run up a white flag and quit)

Poet

[Slimey Limey]

Louis wasn't even faster than Schmeling or Walcott. The lad had Max clamping on the ropes in pain, basicely DEFENSELESS, and he is throwing punches at him slower than old Foreman. You'd think he would try to get him out as fast as he can when he has a guy in front of him acting like a non moving heavy bag. That was a pathetic display of speed.

Louis' handspeed was comparable to Sonny Liston. Holyfield, Tyson, Ali, Patterson and many others were much much faster than bumbeater.

And to answer the TS's question on who's prime was more overrated between Roy Jones and Mike Tyson, I would have to say Joe "bumbeater" Louis. That is my answer. Good day lads.