What Heavyweights In Your Mind Defeat A Prime Joe Louis (Past Or Present)?

[kara]

Not much of an article. The conventional historical wisdom. Any of us could have written that article off the top of our head.

Here's one for you: [My Conjecture]

Because of what I told you earlier about Louis being trapped into a 15 round decision fight when he was promised a 10 round 'no decision' fight, can we be sure Louis wasn't leaving the ring in protest?

I'm not saying he was. I am saying, no sports' writer knows what Louis was thinking, nor why he allowed himself to be talked out of leaving.

That 'historian' you fed us wasn't very impressive.

I'm with you there.

[Ivich]

Not much of an article. The conventional historical wisdom. Any of us could have written that article off the top of our head.

Here's one for you: [My Conjecture]

Because of what I told you earlier about Louis being trapped into a 15 round decision fight when he was promised a 10 round 'no decision' fight, can we be sure Louis wasn't leaving the ring in protest?

I'm not saying he was. I am saying, no sports' writer knows what Louis was thinking, nor why he allowed himself to be talked out of leaving.

That 'historian' you fed us wasn't very impressive.

Louis said he tried to leave the ring in disgust at his own performance,he was also very scathing about Walcott refusing to engage and not attempting to,"take the title" from him.Louis never ,ever said he thought he lost the fight.

Nobody who has not seen the complete fight is in a position to give an opinion as to who won or lost it,and only a biased hating fool would do so. Unfortunately we have one resident here.

We are supposed to give gravitas to an article by a fan who has not seen the complete fight how ridiculous is that?
Michael Carbert who wrote the article, was not even born whilst Joe Louis was alive , why would we take any notice of his opinion on this fight?

image.png

[Dr. Z]

Louis said he tried to leave the ring in disgust at his own performance,he was also very scathing about Walcott refusing to engage and not attempting to,"take the title" from him.Louis never ,ever said he thought he lost the fight.

Nobody who has not seen the complete fight is in a position to give an opinion as to who won or lost it,and only a biased hating fool would do so. Unfortunately we have one resident here.

We are supposed to give gravitas to an article by a fan who has not seen the complete fight how ridiculous is that?
Michael Carbert who wrote the article, was not even born whilst Joe Louis was alive , why would we take any notice of his opinion on this fight?

image.png

Only 20+ boxing writers who viewed the full fight and by 2 /3 majority in Walcott and the live crowd booing the decision! The surviving film has many rounds shown and if you have two good working eyes and can score a fight, Walcott was the winner. Why can't you, a lousy human being, admit this?


As for the historian motioned he was not alive for his this article so go ahead and blast him. If you are fair minded and don't not use double standards, Adam Pollack, your hero was not even alive when he wrote about men who passed even longer ago. Some people alive in my time spoke of the Louis vs. Conn I fight and two of them told me it was a bad decision!

[Ivich]

Only 20+ boxing writers who viewed the full fight and by 2 /3 majority in Walcott and the live crowd booing the decision! The surviving film has many rounds shown and if you have two good working eyes and can score a fight, Walcott was the winner. Why can't you, a lousy human being, admit this?


As for the historian motioned he was not alive for his this article so go ahead and blast him. If you are fair minded and don't not use double standards, Adam Pollack, your hero was not even alive when he wrote about men who passed even longer ago. Some people alive in my time spoke of the Louis vs. Conn I fight and two of them told me it was a bad decision!

Adam Pollack is not giving definite opinions on fights he hasnt seen!
When he gives his opinion on debateable decisions,he is careful to provide all sources that he can.
The two judges voted for Louis and they were at ringside.
Who said this guy was a historian?
What are his credentials for being called one?
Adam Pollack is a historian,he has written loads of excellent biographies of boxers. he is a licensed referee,teaches boxing and works the corner.
Louis Conn 1 was,"a bad decision"? Louis knocked Conn out you cretin! LOL


When the decision was announced two of the judges gave the fight to the champion while the referee scored it for Walcott. The crowd also thought the challenger had done enough to win.

It has been written that even Joe Louis believed he lost the fight. There are two reasons for this. One, Joe tried to leave the ring before the verdict was announced. Second, Louis went over to Walcott and told him he was sorry.

In an interview years later with Curt Gowdy Louis made it clear that while he was not happy with his performance he truly believed he did enough to win. He said he left the ring early because he was disgusted with himself and felt he should have done better. And as far as why he told Walcott he was sorry, Joe responded “I said that to everyone I beat.” Louis felt that in order for Walcott to win the title he would have had to fight more aggressively and not run so much. Apparently, the officials agreed with him. The press, however, did not. 21 out of 32 boxing writers that were polled said they saw Walcott as the winner.

In reality, this was a tough fight to judge. While Walcott fought beautifully, he also seemed to be playing it safety first. It is difficult, especially in that era, for judges take a title away from a champion when the challenger hasn’t won it decisively. It should also be remembered that the scoring of the fight was on the rounds system, so the two rounds where Walcott scored knockdowns did not count anymore than the other rounds he won. Even if it had been scored on points Louis would have won.

[Ivich]

Only 20+ boxing writers who viewed the full fight and by 2 /3 majority in Walcott and the live crowd booing the decision! The surviving film has many rounds shown and if you have two good working eyes and can score a fight, Walcott was the winner. Why can't you, a lousy human being, admit this?


As for the historian motioned he was not alive for his this article so go ahead and blast him. If you are fair minded and don't not use double standards, Adam Pollack, your hero was not even alive when he wrote about men who passed even longer ago. Some people alive in my time spoke of the Louis vs. Conn I fight and two of them told me it was a bad decision!

Plenty of well respected boxing experts sitting ringside voted for Louis,including:
Al Buck
James P Dawson
John Lardner
Dan Parker
Jesse Abramson
Red Smith
Bill Corum

They were ringside and saw the whole fight.
Most who voted either way saw it as close.
Newspaper Votes

• Jim Schlemmer, sporting editor, Akron Beacon Journal (Akron, OH) - Walcott
• Jesse A. Linthicum, sporting editor, The Sun (Baltimore, MD) - 8-5-2 Walcott (score provided by Associated Press)
• Jean Rouchard. The Evening Sun (Baltimore, MD) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• Joe Lee, Brooklyn Eagle (Brooklyn, NY) - 8-7 Louis (score provided by United Press)
• Tommy Holmes, Brooklyn Eagle (Brooklyn, NY) - Walcott
• Ralph Frost, Brooklyn Eagle (Brooklyn, NY) - Walcott
• Tom Ryan, sporting editor, Evening Courier (Camden, NJ) - 12-2-1 Walcott
• Wilfrid Smith, Chicago Daily Tribube (Chicago, IL) - 8-6-1 Louis (score provided by United Press)
• James E. Doyle, Cleveland Plain Dealer (Cleveland, OH) - 10-4-1 Walcott
• Gordon Cobble****, sporting editor, Cleveland Plain Dealer (Cleveland, OH) - 7-6-2 Walcott (score provided by Associated Press and United Press)
• Jack Sharkey, International News Service - Walcott
• Frank Eck, Associated Press - 9-6 Walcott
• Elliott Cushing, ******** and Chronicle (Rochester, NY) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• Jack Cuddy, United Press - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Ray Grody, Milwaukee Sentinel (Milwaukee, WI) - 7-6-2 Walcott (score provided by United Press)
• George A. Barton, Minneapolis Morning Tribune (Minneapolis, MI) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• Alan Harvey, Canadian Press - 6-5-4 Walcott
• Gene Ward, Daily News (New York, NY) - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Joe Trimble, Daily News (New York, NY) - 7-6-2 Louis (score provided by Associated Press and United Press)
• Al Buck, New York Post (New York, NY) - 8-5-2 Louis.
• Leonard Cohen, New York Post (New York, NY) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• Jimmy Cannon, New York Post (New York, NY) - 8 rounds for Walcott
• Anthony Marenghi, Newark Star-Ledger (Newark, NJ) - 7-6-2 Louis
• Joe Gootter, Paterson Evening News (Paterson, NJ) - 9-6 Louis
• Al Abrams, sporting editor, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette (Pittsburgh, PA) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• W. J. McGoogan, St. Louis Post-Dispatch (St. Louis, MO) - 7-7-1
• John M. Flynn, sporting editor, The Berkshire Evening Eagle (Pittsfield, MA) - Walcott
• Clif Keane, The Boston Daily Globe (Boston, MA) - 8-5-2 Louis
• Bill Cunningham, The Boston Herald (Boston, MA) - 7-6-2 Walcott (score provided by United Press)
• Sec Taylor, sporting editor, The Des Moines Register (Des Moines, IA) - 8-6-1 Walcott
• Burton Hawkins, The Evening Star (Washington, DC) - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Bill Lee, sporting editor, The Hartford Courant (Hartford, CT) - 7-4-4 Walcott
• Charlie Tiang, sporting editor, The Kingston Daily Freeman (Kingston, NY) - 9-4-2 Walcott
• Wendell Smith, sporting editor, The Pittsburgh Courier (Pittsburgh, PA) - 7-6-2 Louis
• James P. Dawson, The New York Times (New York, NY) - 8-7 Louis
• Joseph C. Nichols, New York Times - 8-7 Louis (score provided by Associated Press and United Press)
• John Webster, The Philadelphia Inquirer and Public Ledger (Philadelphia, PA) - 11-3-1 Walcott
• Lawton Carver, sporting editor, International News Service - 7-5-3 Louis
• Harold W. Heinz, The Springfield Union (Springfield, MA) - 8-5-2 Walcott
• John McNulty, PM Daily (New York, NY) - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Tom Meany, sporting editor, PM Daily (New York, NY) - 9-6 Louis (score provided by Associated Press)
• Nat Fleischer, The Ring (New York, NY) - 8-6-1 Louis

• Wilbur Wood, sporting editor, New York Sun - 11-4 Walcott
• Grantland Rice, New York Sun - 11-4 Walcott
• Lester Bromberg, New York World Telegram - 10-5 Walcott
• Joe Williams, New York World Telegram - Walcott
• Max Case, New York Journal-American - Walcott
• Frank Graham, New York Journal-American - Walcott
• Lewis Burton, New York Journal-American - Walcott
• Bill Corum, New York Journal-American - 8-7 Louis
• Dan Parker, New York Daily Mirror - 9-6 Louis (according to AP) or 8-7 Louis (according to UP)
• Jim Jennings, New York Daily Mirror - 7-6-2 Louis
• Jesse Abramson, New York Herald Tribune - 8-7 Louis
• Red Smith, New York Herald Tribune - 8-7 Louis
• Ted Meier, Associated Press - 11-3-1 Walcott
• Hugh S. Fullerton, Associated Press - Walcott. "He scored the harder punches."
• Murray Rose, Associated Press - 9-5-1 Walcott
• Ted Smits, Associated Press - Walcott
• Gayle Talbot, Associated Press - 10-4-1 Walcott
• Leo H. Peterson, sporting editor, United Press - 7-5-3 Walcott
• Oscar Fraley, United Press - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Bob Considine, International News Service - 8-7 Walcott
• Davis J. Walsh, International News Service - 8-3-4 Walcott
• Harry Grayson, Newspaper Enterprise Association - 8-4-3 Walcott
• John Lardner, North American Newspaper Alliance - Louis
• John Carmichael, sporting editor, Chicago Daily News - 11-4 Walcott (according to AP) or 8-4-3 Walcott (according to UP)
• Gene Kessler, Chicago Times - 7-6-2 Walcott
• Clair Kelley, Chicago Herald-American - 9-3-3 Walcott
• Jack Conway, Boston American - Louis
• Gerry Hern, Boston Post - 7-7-1 (according to AP and Al Buck of NY Post) or 7-6-2 Walcott (according to UP)
• Ed Delaney, Philadelphia Daily News - Walcott
• Matt Ring, Philadelphia Evening Bulletin - 8-7 Walcott
• Whitey Lewis, Cleveland News - 8-7 Walcott
• Franklin Lewis, Cleveland Press - Walcott
• Shirley Povich, Washington Post - Walcott
• Bob Addie, Washinton Times-Herald - 9-3-3 Walcott
• Hank O'Donnell, Waterbury ********** - 12-2-1 Walcott
• George Edmond, St. Paul Pioneer Press - 8-5-2 Louis
• Bill Demuth, Wheeling Intelligencer - 8-5-2 Walcott
• Robert Bre, La Presse (Paris, France) - 7-5-3 Louis
• Jean Kroutchtain, AFP (French News Agency) - 7-5-3 Walcott
• Bob Murphy, Detroit Evening Times, 8-5-2 Walcott

21 for Walcott 10 for Louis with 1 draw.

• I haven't seen the whole fight and neither have you,the crucial difference is I'm not prattling on about people having," two good eyes to score a fight ,"about crooked judges and Walcott being robbed and you are!

[BKM-]

Interesting discussion above, but I can only imagine the temper tantrum Louis would give after Ali and Holmes pepper him all night long from long range, how much they would "run" from him.

I see a lot of past heavyweights beating prime Louis. When you're talking head to head matchups throughout different era's, you won't have much of a legacy left for him. His spot in history is strengthened by his consistency, longevity and the impressive stats. Not the quality of his opposition, and not so much his actual abilities in the ring stacking up well H2H.

He had a lot of great abilities but also a lot of vulnerabilities. In fact, his great abilities often heightened his vulnerabilities. He just got dropped, hurt and outboxed too many times(against that level of competition) even in his prime to really match him up very well against other ATG heavyweights.

[cfang]

Not many. Some of the modern guys would have big size advantages but Louis beat big men in his day too. Probably the fast boxer types would out point him but Louis was a killer of a heavy with power on both hands. Guy made 26 defences and without the war what would it have been? 35 at least. Ali and prob Holmes beat Louis and maybe the k bros.

[BKM-]

Not many. Some of the modern guys would have big size advantages but Louis beat big men in his day too. Probably the fast boxer types would out point him but Louis was a killer of a heavy with power on both hands. Guy made 26 defences and without the war what would it have been? 35 at least. Ali and prob Holmes beat Louis and maybe the k bros.

Plus Lennox Lewis, pre-suicide attempt Tyson Fury. And these are just the ones who would beat him using movement and reach.

No telling how many of these other monsters would finish what Tony Galento of all people started.

[QueensburyRules]

Plus Lennox Lewis, pre-suicide attempt Tyson Fury. And these are just the ones who would beat him using movement and reach.

No telling how many of these other monsters would finish what Tony Galento of all people started.

- - Blubber shytes he shorts and run back for mommy. Same for Lewie save he runs to mummy.

[Slugfester]

Well, has anyone here seen the entire Louis/Walcott 1? All the parts I saw were won by Walcott. I can always assume Louis won all unseen parts of the rounds and the decision was just. But it was obvious from their reaction that the crowd thought Walcott won too.