Jim Jeffries or Jack Johnson

[billeau2]

Wasn't Johnson Ko'ed by Choyinsky? I have no dog in this fight... just thought this fact might be relevant considering Jeffries drew with Choyinsky. I have no opinion on this fight... there are many ways to view each guy's competition.

[The Old LefHook]

Johnny was barely brown at the time.

[Willow The Wisp]

** Young Jackie didn't exactly set the world on fire coming up compared to Jeff.

Jim Jeffries was 7-1-1 in HOF fights, 41% of his entire career against 6 HOFers. Never understood how he could've fallen from the ranks as far as he has based upon a loss that in retrospect was an impossible task for any fighter in history.

By the close of 1901, Jeff was into his 3rd year as champ, 15-0-2 in 18 fights compared to his natural peer, Jack Johnson who was 4-3-4 in his 13 fights.

Johnson was also marked up badly with a 0-2-1 record against two fighters Jeff had already handled. Keep in mind that by box rec, both record their first pro fights within a year of each other.

Me thinks he was downgraded for a relative short career, but they always ignore the quality of Jeff's comp, the acclaim and criticism which distorts a fighter's life, and the money which afforded him luxuries well beyond the reach of 99% of the population and contributed to his well established massive weight gains between fights.

Jeff's title reign was also against much tougher comp than Johnson defended. No, JJ did not fight that tough of comp. He was beat by the best prime heavy he ever faced, and didn't beat that many decent prime heavies. He sorta lucked into the title when Burns skipped out of Paris without meeting the Langford title challenge. Burns instead sails with his man servant, best friend, and steady-eddie title challenger Bill Squires whom he defended against on 3 separate continents, a record of sorts.

Johnson was able to afford to sail to Australia down to the financial backing of an English sporting organization who's name escapes me, bound by contract to return to England and defend the title against Sam Langford who was the English Champ.

Usual suspects and the 8th grader puppy-poet consider this "hating" on Johnson, but similar overlaps up his record have already been established with the publication of Unforgivable Blackness, Papa Jack, and the Ken Burns bio-doc of Unforgivable Blackness.

The insatiable need for moderns to shoehorn great fighters and otherwise pound square blocks into round holes to satisfy what passes for intellectual musings is well established. I wouldn't say either or, but more like different talents and natures as they were the yin and yang of their eras.

Going over select threads from recent times, I'm new here. This is a good rant with salient points. (And there are others on the thread as well) I think Johnson's legacy transcends the need for division cleansing and we might be reasonable to assume that promotors wishing to stage Johnson's fights would've met with all manner of obstacles in the US, Europe and Australia, which we can't blame Johnson for. But certainly, his title reign lasting 6 years, 4 months and 9 winning fights, 34-35 some odd exhibitions and a handful of catch wrestling matches could have been greatly enhanced with real title defenses notched against more real names such as Hart, Schreck, Morris, McCarty, Wells, Jeanette, Stewart, Langford, McVey, Geyer, Savage, Carroll, Palzer, Cowler, Rodel, Morris, Kearns, Pelkey, Benedict, Reich, Daily, Bonds, Coffee, Porky Flynn, Cox, Anderson, etc. No shortage of contenders available. Would any have beaten a busy, focused and less besieged Jack Johnson however?

[Willow The Wisp]

** Ali said that Tyson would've knocked him out.

And how many times have fighters been interviewed on upcoming fights and picked the wrong fighter?

Means nothing to the historical fact that Johnson never, ever beat the quality of prime heavies that Jeffries did and couldn't even make himself useful enough in their primes to compel a title challenge.

Johnson's greatness is down to being a seminal historical character rather than his superiority as a fighter, otherwise Marvin Hart, Joe Jeannette, Klon***e Haines, Big Jess and Hank Griffin would be more widely celebrated.

Well they were celebrated widely in their day. As much as the top ball players of today are now. No question about that, upon examination of the artifacts. To anyone who can accurately claim to be knowledgeable on the subject, they still are widely celebrated.

[Willow The Wisp]

Wasn't Johnson Ko'ed by Choyinsky? I have no dog in this fight... just thought this fact might be relevant considering Jeffries drew with Choyinsky. I have no opinion on this fight... there are many ways to view each guy's competition.

My response here is that Johnson-Jeffries was the "Fight of the century" in 1910. Had they met in 1901, I'd certainly have favored Big Jeff by a KO. So the great question is, who would've come out on top in 1905????

[billeau2]

My response here is that Johnson-Jeffries was the "Fight of the century" in 1910. Had they met in 1901, I'd certainly have favored Big Jeff by a KO. So the great question is, who would've come out on top in 1905????

Yeah that is an entirely different affair. Jeffries was by all accounts a physical marvel and... so was Johnson lol. The style back then did not hold the same advantages for a few extra pounds... actually within a certain range the lighter guy could have the advantage, depending on endurance, and the ability of the fighters to protect their hands when throwing a hard shot to the body. That would have been a fantastic fight. Both men have their detractors and their advocates. I don't tend to feel that Johnson fighting guys who were on the average, a bit smaller, was really such a big deal because for reasons stated above.

[QueensburyRules]

My response here is that Johnson-Jeffries was the "Fight of the century" in 1910. Had they met in 1901, I'd certainly have favored Big Jeff by a KO. So the great question is, who would've come out on top in 1905????

- - Around that time JJ lost by stink what was an unofficial title eliminator vs Hart that prompted Jeffries retirement satisfied he'd whoooped all relevant contenders. JJ was later DQ when Jeannette was whoooping him. 1905 just was the start of a lousy slice of his career for him.

[edgarg]

** Why, it's sweet young little Butterfly all grown up now and flexing his new muscles for show.

Like Vitali announced recently to Juan Carlos, "Butterfly, my little friend, so glad to see you. I am so sorry that I have to beat you up."

Johnson weren't the one acclaimed for his athleticism in his youth, Jeffries was and still is. Read all about it.

Fair play about Jeff's style, but as pointed out, the man won his title on his prodigious natural talents and prodigious physical attributes, not experience as he was only 9-0-2 going into the Fitz challenge. In his 5 rematches, he dramatically reduces the time needed to dispose of his more experienced contenders, Fitz, Corbett, Ruhlin, and Griffin. Only Sharkey extends him out. He was a much more refined fighter upon his retirement.

If Jeff is criticized as a grind it out man, Johnson was well booed in his day as a spoiling, non fighting, hug'em & hit'em when the ref ain't looking prototype that Ruiz and Poppy get booed for today. Jeff was at least one of the early acclaimed KO artists with a steller 75% KO ratio in the dreary ND era on his retirement. Even more outstanding when 40% of his career was against HOFers. Jeff was 7-0-1, 5 KO against those HOFers on his retirement to Johnson's 0-1-0, 1 KO loss.

Johnson never faced all the elite black heavies that Jeff did coming up, and the only one Johnson did face he got his big booty well whooped in, Griffin. Nor did Johnson face the elite white heavies of the day. Fitz a sick old man entering his retirement phase silly boy. 'Bout like Big Pants Lar whoopin' Ali, whooooop-whooooop, WOW!

At any rate, the first sick old white contender Johnson did face smacked him ice cold as easy as a skip through the park with his stroller.

At least when Jeff whooped his sick old champ Peter Jackson, Jeff has the excuse of Leon, only having 7 fights experience and not even Leon's amateur background, and disposes of the noble Peter Jackson in 3 rds.

McVea was barely 19 yrs old, 6-0 when Johnson first matches him. Jeannette only 0-3, Langford only 150lbs, who takes an ad out challenging every fighter in the world after his Johnson bout, EXCEPT Jeff.

Denver Ed WHO? Why should Jeff fight Denver Ed when he'd already handled Johnson's victors and champion of the world? Maybe had Denver Ed held it together better, he might have made enough headway to be a credible challenger to Fitz.

To wit: "" "Martin proved the cleverer and never gave his opponent (Bob Armstrong) a chance, being declared an easy winner on points at the close of the fifteenth round; Martin, it is announced, will challenge the winner of the Jeffries-Fitzsimmons fight in San Francsico." (Associated Press)""

This is in the middle of his English tour, but unfortunately, being exposed to England culture may have done wonders for his English and culture, but he fell apart, hanging on by a thread against Armstrong in a 6 rd Philadelphia rematch that sees Denver Ed hit the canvas 6x for a ND. We know by modern standards Armstrong wins that bout handily and Jeff had already handled Armstrong coming up. Point being that Denver Ed couldn't hold it together on the eve of his challenge to Jeff, something that Johnson replicates when he loses the unofficial elimination bout against Hart and then drops one to novice Jeannette.

In in Jeff's last fight, his storied ill begotten comeback he goes 15 tough rounds against the new champ and shows more class than Johnson who's knocked out by a featherweight, the mighty Walter Price who rightfully deserves to be ranked ahead of Johnson in the heavy pantheon if you fluff Johnson up with Fitz and Jeff!

A featherweight, or a mere feather to fluff your bed my dear Butterfly, oh my stars!!!!!!

McVea, age 19 in 7th fight against Johnson, Johnson in 11th fight. According to McVeigh's Wike record.. In Johnson's record on Wiki, his 11th fight was a KO loss in 3 against Joe Choynski

BUT on Johnson's record on Wike, more accurate as he was more famous,. was Johnson's 25th, of which he's lost 3, 3 No Decisions, and 6 draws, . He was K0'd a few time too... His record, in which most of his opponents were underlined, meaning that they also were reported on WIKI (contrary to Sam's record where NO opponents were underlined. and which doesn't show the 3 fights) Johnson's record shows he beat Sam McVea 3 times. He played with Langford who was at least 165 lbs, (and reputed to have been actually 185 at which weight he fought for most of his better career) I've read the old newspaper reports, which you haven't.

I don't know exactly what you're getting at, except to run down Johnson, the greatest Heavyweight fighter in History, until Joe Louis. . And. you may not know, Johnson saw that weakness that Joe had of bringing back his left a bit low, on which Schmeling capitalised. He told them so. but they ignored him.

[mrbig1]

Jack no doubt. remember Corbett was past his prime when he fought big Jim. Corbett wore himself out by pounding Jeffries for 24 rounds. Jeffries landed one big shot and that was it. My point is if Corbett was a lot smaller but out boxed him with ease. I think Johnson a master boxer as well and the same size. Jack wins with ease. Jeffries had little to no skill. Johnson had the better career.

[Willie Pep 229]

Mary Ann or Ginger?