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Who do you rate higher all-time?
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Johnson or Jeffries (Jim)
My pick would be Jackie for a number of reasons. Level of opposition and longevity would be my top two reasons.
Who's your pick?
mrbig1
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Johnson. Better resume at heavyweight and under some very gruelling conditions.Originally posted by Tim Horton View PostComment
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True!Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post
It's just too bad that he had to draw the flippin' colour barrier after he beat up Burns because even though Jack beat Langford, McVey and Jeanette on numerous occasions had they had the opportunity to fight for the title the history of heavyweight boxing might have been changed drastically. Who knows, I might not have Jack Johnson listed as one of my top three all-time favourites had he given Langford another shot at the big prize.Comment
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** Young Jackie didn't exactly set the world on fire coming up compared to Jeff.Originally posted by Tim Horton View Post
Jim Jeffries was 7-1-1 in HOF fights, 41% of his entire career against 6 HOFers. Never understood how he could've fallen from the ranks as far as he has based upon a loss that in retrospect was an impossible task for any fighter in history.
By the close of 1901, Jeff was into his 3rd year as champ, 15-0-2 in 18 fights compared to his natural peer, Jack Johnson who was 4-3-4 in his 13 fights.
Johnson was also marked up badly with a 0-2-1 record against two fighters Jeff had already handled. Keep in mind that by box rec, both record their first pro fights within a year of each other.
Me thinks he was downgraded for a relative short career, but they always ignore the quality of Jeff's comp, the acclaim and criticism which distorts a fighter's life, and the money which afforded him luxuries well beyond the reach of 99% of the population and contributed to his well established massive weight gains between fights.
Jeff's title reign was also against much tougher comp than Johnson defended. No, JJ did not fight that tough of comp. He was beat by the best prime heavy he ever faced, and didn't beat that many decent prime heavies. He sorta lucked into the title when Burns skipped out of Paris without meeting the Langford title challenge. Burns instead sails with his man servant, best friend, and steady-eddie title challenger Bill Squires whom he defended against on 3 separate continents, a record of sorts.
Johnson was able to afford to sail to Australia down to the financial backing of an English sporting organization who's name escapes me, bound by contract to return to England and defend the title against Sam Langford who was the English Champ.
Usual suspects and the 8th grader puppy-poet consider this "hating" on Johnson, but similar overlaps up his record have already been established with the publication of Unforgivable Blackness, Papa Jack, and the Ken Burns bio-doc of Unforgivable Blackness.
The insatiable need for moderns to shoehorn great fighters and otherwise pound square blocks into round holes to satisfy what passes for intellectual musings is well established. I wouldn't say either or, but more like different talents and natures as they were the yin and yang of their eras.
Greb5000
Willow The Wisp
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Here are there respective records in their prime against top fighters:Originally posted by JAB5239 View Post
James Jeffries
Joe Choynski Draw
Peter Jackson Won KO Dying of TB
Tom Sharkey Won Decision
Tom Sharkey Won Decision
Bob Fitzsimmons Won KO Past-Prime
Bob Fitzsimmons Won KO Past-Prime
James Corbett Won KO Past-Prime
James Corbett Won KO Past-Prime
That's 8 fights, a 7-0-1(5) record, with three fights against in-prime opponents.
Jack Johnson
Sam McVea Won Decision
Sam McVea Won Decision
Sam McVea Won KO
Joe Jeannette No Decision
Joe Jeannette No Decision
Joe Jeannette Loss DQ
Joe Jeannette No Decision
Joe Jeannette Won Decision
Joe Jeannette Won Decision
Joe Jeannette Won Decision
Joe Jeannette Draw
Sam Langford Won Decision
Bob Fitzsimmons Won KO Past Prime
Tommy Burns Won Decision
Stanley Ketchel Won KO
James Jeffries Won KO Past Prime
That's 16 fights (almost as many as Jeffries had total [18]), a 11-1-1(4)
record with 3 No Decisions, with 14 fights against in-prime opponents.
Gentlemen draw your own conclusions!
Poet
JAB5239
Willow The Wisp
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I think Jack Johnson was superior. He was technically a better fighter and defeated black and white boxers alike.
I think Jeffries would've had his hands full with some of the black fighters who were prominent at the time.Comment
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** Blimey, the doggerel poet's 8th grade teacher has asked me to impartially judge whether or not he shall be allowed to advance to the 9th grade.Originally posted by poet682006 View Post
McVea- 20-21 yrs old for the Johnson fights, a kid that Jeff could've shown up in his 250lb state he did for lesser title defenses and had no problems since McVea was inexperienced and proved to be prone to being KOed. McVea was only prime from the typical 8th graders perspective.
Jeannette- 0-3-0 when Johnson started their brief series. Again, Jeff could've shown up in his 250 lb state against the novice Jeannette who did manage to beat Johnson once. Jeannette was only prime from the typical 8th graders perspective.
Langford- 150lbs in his 2nd heavy fight as he left the lightweight division. Crimony Crickets, Sam was only prime from the typical 8th graders perspective. Reminds me of our 8th grade class nemesis, Neil McG who was 150 lbs of solid muscle against our 70-100 lbs. No doubt Neil would have fallen in love with the easy whuppins the doggerel poet would present to him.
At any rate, Sam was in awe with Jeff and took out an newspaper ad proclaiming he would fight anyone BUT Jeff. Whereas he looked at Johnson as a French souffle Sam was hungry for but kept being denied service.
Fitz- well, the doggy poet must think Ruby Rob older than dirt itself as he finally figures out Fitz ain't prime.
Tommy Burns- well, yes ******ia, there is a Santy Claus and JJ finally got to beat a prime heavy who happened to be the tiniest heavy in history. Well, again, Burns was a BIG MAN from the typical 8th graders perspective.
Stanley Ketchel- sure the middleweight champ was prime, prime enough to knock JJ silly before being KOed.
None of Jeff's HOF opponents would have any problems with the tiny and novice fighters the typical 8th grader wants to worship much less Jeff himself.
Be happy to make a credible case for the greatness of Johnson some day, but for now I have the sad duty of notifying the doggerel poet's teacher that he will be repeating the 8th grade yet again. Perhaps the 3rd time will be be the charm or I will have to order a special oversized desk to accommodate his advancing physical maturity.Comment
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Jim Jeffries. He fought before gloves. He is as tough as hell and athleticComment
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why does the guy with the sports illustrated cover type like such a ****....
ketchel floored johnson, but he got right back up and knocked him out cold....johnson lost his title at 37 and still went 20 rounds that dayComment
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