Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[Marchegiano]

Right, you mean when it comes to fighting black contenders. But how do you rank him as a heavyweight all time?

I was bull****ting, but as a matter of fact I didn't mean just black fighters. He ducked white fighters as well, Harry Greb being most notable. Jack Dempsey is the proto Money Mayweather except without the hate. It's a bit timing, a bit cherrypicking, and a whole lot of perspective. On one hand, you can always give Floyd **** for ducking X or Y or not fighting Z in their prime. Because there's only one Money. Jack's in the same boat, if 100 dudes wanted him and he didn't fight 100 dudes, when being a ****, you can always present it like a duck. If I'm honest, I don't believe pro fighters are scared of one another. There's always extra reasons. I pick on Jack because so many are sensitive to it.


Who do you mean, Wills or Dempsey?

[Willie Pep 229]

I was bull****ting, but as a matter of fact I didn't mean just black fighters. He ducked white fighters as well, Harry Greb being most notable. Jack Dempsey is the proto Money Mayweather except without the hate. It's a bit timing, a bit cherrypicking, and a whole lot of perspective. On one hand, you can always give Floyd **** for ducking X or Y or not fighting Z in their prime. Because there's only one Money. Jack's in the same boat, if 100 dudes wanted him and he didn't fight 100 dudes, when being a ****, you can always present it like a duck. If I'm honest, I don't believe pro fighters are scared of one another. There's always extra reasons. I pick on Jack because so many are sensitive to it.


Who do you mean, Wills or Dempsey?

Dempsey didn't duck Greb.

1. The Pittsburgh promoter couldn't guarantee more than 100K and wanted Kearns to take that 100K and 50% of the gate. Kearns didn't take gate % he wanted it up front.

2. The NYSAC threatened to strip Denpsey of their recognition if he didn't fight Wills by a certain date. Kearns blew smoke up their ass by claiming he was arranging a Dempsey-Greb go in Pittsburgh.

The NYSAC got cold feet realizing that for Dempsey to be recognized as HW Champion he didn't need their recognition, and if they stripped Dempsey they were going to look foolish if not irrelevant.

Come the day that Dempsey was to be stripped the NYSAC lost its nerve did nothing and stayed silent.

Just to rub their nose in it, that very same day Kearns called a press conference and announced the Greb fight was off, not enough money.

Greb's promoter couldn't come up with enough of a guarantee to satisfy Kearns, and Kearns used him like a pawn. (The Pittsburgh ptomoter)

Kearns wanted a 300K guarantee up front and then a possible 200K more from the gate for a total of 500K, Greb's people couldn't come close.

If you don't know Kearns you only think you know Dempsey, but you don't.

P.S. Glad you're back.

[Marchegiano]

Dempsey didn't duck Greb.

1. The Pittsburgh promoter couldn't guarantee more than 100K and wanted Kearns to take that 100K and 50% of the gate. Kearns didn't take gate % he wanted it up front.

2. The NYSAC threatened to strip Denpsey of their recognition if he didn't fight Wills by a certain date. Kearns blew smoke up their ass by claiming he was arranging a Dempsey-Greb go in Pittsburgh.

The NYSAC got cold feet realizing that for Dempsey to be recognized as HW Champion he didn't need their recognition, and if they stripped Dempsey they were going to look foolish if not irrelevant.

Come the day that Dempsey was to be stripped the NYSAC lost its nerve did nothing and stayed silent.

Just to rub their nose in it, that very same day Kearns called a press conference and announced the Greb fight was off, not enough money.

Greb's promoter couldn't come up with enough of a guarantee to satisfy Kearns, and Kearns used him like a pawn. (The Pittsburgh ptomoter)

Kearns wanted a 300K guarantee up front and then a possible 200K more from the gate for a total of 500K, Greb's people couldn't come close.

If you don't know Kearns you only think you know Dempsey, but you don't.

P.S. Glad you're back.

I'm not sure you read my whole post.

[Willie Pep 229]

I'm not sure you read my whole post.

Yep I didn't - stink on me.

While I don't believe Dempsey was scared of anyone - I do believe in 1922 that Dempsey was scared of the 'Wills fight' - for fear of the repercussions it might cause. Talked up by Rickard's negativity. - Dempsey got raked over the coals for being a 'slacker' and I think he feared being unpopular.

Sorry next time I will be more thorough.

[Anthony342]

I was bull****ting, but as a matter of fact I didn't mean just black fighters. He ducked white fighters as well, Harry Greb being most notable. Jack Dempsey is the proto Money Mayweather except without the hate. It's a bit timing, a bit cherrypicking, and a whole lot of perspective. On one hand, you can always give Floyd **** for ducking X or Y or not fighting Z in their prime. Because there's only one Money. Jack's in the same boat, if 100 dudes wanted him and he didn't fight 100 dudes, when being a ****, you can always present it like a duck. If I'm honest, I don't believe pro fighters are scared of one another. There's always extra reasons. I pick on Jack because so many are sensitive to it.


Who do you mean, Wills or Dempsey?

I mean Jack Dempsey. Would you say he's an all time top 10 heavyweight? If not, then top 15?

[Marchegiano]

I mean Jack Dempsey. Would you say he's an all time top 10 heavyweight? If not, then top 15?

I kind of only make lists for you guys.

I've never been a big fan of rated lists, the cliche about eras and comparing is true, but what is also true is there are more than ten HWs in the queensbury history alone that were damn near unbeatable let alone all of boxing history.

We should probably do away with all time lists in favor of all time categories. IMO. In that regard I'd regard Dempsey as just as high quality as any other and that would be more reflective of my real opinion than rating him.

The only reason to rate him below anyone else is really super subjective, but the only reason to rate him above all else is really super subjective. Taking for granted of course you're dealing with usual top HW names.

[Anthony342]

I kind of only make lists for you guys.

I've never been a big fan of rated lists, the cliche about eras and comparing is true, but what is also true is there are more than ten HWs in the queensbury history alone that were damn near unbeatable let alone all of boxing history.

We should probably do away with all time lists in favor of all time categories. IMO. In that regard I'd regard Dempsey as just as high quality as any other and that would be more reflective of my real opinion than rating him.

The only reason to rate him below anyone else is really super subjective, but the only reason to rate him above all else is really super subjective. Taking for granted of course you're dealing with usual top HW names.

Sounds like Top 5 even. Nice.

[HOUDINI563]

Johnson was rated as one of if not THE greatest heavyweights during his time. Wills was never considered in such a lofty manner.

[travestyny]

Johnson was rated as one of if not THE greatest heavyweights during his time. Wills was never considered in such a lofty manner.

What does this matter? Does that mean WIlls didn't deserve a shot at the title?

[HOUDINI563]

What does this matter? Does that mean WIlls didn't deserve a shot at the title?

Certainly he deserved a shot more so earlier on in Dempseys reign. Wills/Wills management stopped taking chances later on and instead was keen to keep his top contender “ranking”. The reason Wills never received a shot was due to the specter of Johnson Jeffries and the idea in general handed down for decades to never give a black man an opportunity to be crowned the physical superior of all men. The powers that be during that time did everything they could to prevent such a bout. It took Louis in 1937 some 15 years later to bridge that gap.