Why is Jack Johnson rated so high...

[GhostofDempsey]

Dempsey was referring to the attempt of his then manager John Reisler to match him with Langford when he himself was still a green up and comer,he explains that in his autobiography .He knew he wasnt ready for such tough experienced opposition he also turned down a fight with Gun Boat Smith and Frank Moran around the same time both white boxers .
Reisler threatened and cajoled him into fighting John Lester Johnson a match he wasn't really ready for. Dempsey fought Johnson in the black Harlem Club sustained 3 broken ribs early in the fight but struggled through the ten rds to lose a dec ,pretty commendable imo.
Later with more fights and ring experience under his belt he butchered Smith and had to take it easy on Johnson when he joined his camp as a sparring partner ,its all about timing In 1916 Dempsey wasn't ready for Langford. In1917Fred Fulton jabbed Langford's head off and permanently damaged his eye leaving him sightless in it. Dempsey "Tsunamied " Fulton , a years later, taking him out inside 23 seconds !
One of Dempsey's sparring partners for Fulton was Battling Jim Johnson Dempsey beat up the 30 years old Johnson and Kearns had to restrain Dempsey because he said," I cant get sparring partners for you".Johnson said,"I would rather fight any man in the world than box Dempsey for fun."
Johnson had fought Wills,Langford,Jack Johnson,and Jeannette. So in1917 we have Fulton stopping Langford in 7 rds and a year beating him again One year after Dempsey beating the **** out of Fulton in23 seconds,yet Dempsey was still afraid to face Langford?
Does that make any kind of logical sense to you?

By the time Dempsey was Champion, in1919 Langford was fat ,half blind 36 years old and on the slide ,Dempsey would have hurt him badly and it would have been a criminal match to make.
Pollack's exhaustively researched first volume on Dempsey deals with the Jeannette incident and supplies many primary sources from contemporary news reports and named writers,nowhere does it mention a quote of fighting any two white men,in fact Dempsey said he had agreed to fight Joe Bonds and Joe Bonds only,which rather implies he may well have refused to spar with any other white boxer. Dempsey later gave his services in a benefit for Langford, along with other boxers he gave an exhibition to raise much needed funds for Sam.

Reisler was trying to keep things in-house like many managers/promoters today. He had both Dempsey and Langford under contract and was looking to cash in on the winner. For Reisler it would have been a win-win. When Dempsey insisted he wasn't experienced enough for Langford, Reisler signed him to fight Lester who had already been in the ring with far more experienced fighters. The fight is listed as a draw, but Dempsey himself admits he lost. One of the redeemable qualities of Dempsey was that he was in fact a humble man, especially in defeat.

[Ivich]

Reisler was trying to keep things in-house like many managers/promoters today. He had both Dempsey and Langford under contract and was looking to cash in on the winner. For Reisler it would have been a win-win. When Dempsey insisted he wasn't experienced enough for Langford, Reisler signed him to fight Lester who had already been in the ring with far more experienced fighters. The fight is listed as a draw, but Dempsey himself admits he lost. One of the redeemable qualities of Dempsey was that he was in fact a humble man, especially in defeat.

Langford was managed by Joe Woodman not Reisler

[GhostofDempsey]

Langford was managed by Joe Woodman not Reisler

The way I understood it, Woodman was Langford's manager, but Reisler would have been promoter for both for that potential fight, cashing in on both fighters. Reisler was a snake. He lied to Dempsey's previous manager in an effort to buy him for $50.

[Ivich]

The way I understood it, Woodman was Langford's manager, but Reisler would have been promoter for both for that potential fight, cashing in on both fighters. Reisler was a snake. He lied to Dempsey's previous manager in an effort to buy him for $50.

Jack Price was Dempsey's previous manager,Randy Roberts says Reisler sent him a fake telegram informing him his Mother was sick and moved in once Price was off the scene. Woodman was Langford's manager right up till the near end of his career.As a youngster Sam came into Woodman's gym looking for work/something to eat. Woodman gave him a Janitor's job sweeping out the place and allowing him to sleep on a cot in the gym. Woodman was a good guy with one vice ,horse racing ,he lost tons on it and Langford often had to bail him out and fight for nothing/ Woodman told Langford to retire once Sams optic nerve was severed in the Fulton fight but Langford wasn't in a financial position to do so.Woodman later walked away when Sam's sight deteriorated still further,but he always rooted for Langford. I've no record of Reisler promoting and he certainly had no paper on Langford.He was a small time flesh peddler and a nasty piece of work.

[GhostofDempsey]

Price was Dempsey's previous manager,Randy Roberts says Reisler sent him a fake telegram informing him his Mother was sick and moved in once Price was off the scene. Woodman was Langford's manager right up till the near end of his career.As a youngster Sam came into Woodman's gym looking for work/something to eat. Woodman gave him a Janitor's job sweeping out the place and allowing him to sleep on a cot in the gym. Woodman was a good guy with one vice ,horse racing ,he lost tons on it and Langford often had to bail him out and fight for nothing/ Woodman told Langford to retire once Sams optic nerve was severed in the Fulton fight but Langford wasn't in a financial position to do so.Woodman later walked away when Sam's sight deteriorated still further,but he always rooted for Langford. I've no record of Reisler promoting and he certainly had no paper on Langford.He was a small time flesh peddler and a nasty piece of work.

Reisler was a barber and small time boxing promoter in NY. Attempting to get a percentage of both fighters as promoter, while managing Dempsey. Reisler basically gave up on Dempsey after the Lester fight, and reared his ugly head when he got wind of Dempsey's title fight with Willard. He demanded 30% and had to be paid off by Kearns and Rickard, who were getting 50% of Dempsey.

[Willie Pep 229]

Reisler was trying to keep things in-house like many managers/promoters today. He had both Dempsey and Langford under contract and was looking to cash in on the winner. For Reisler it would have been a win-win. When Dempsey insisted he wasn't experienced enough for Langford, Reisler signed him to fight Lester who had already been in the ring with far more experienced fighters. The fight is listed as a draw, but Dempsey himself admits he lost. One of the redeemable qualities of Dempsey was that he was in fact a humble man, especially in defeat.

That's becuse the man believed in himself he didn't need others the build his confidence.

"I was a pretty good fighter, it was the newspaper guys who made me great." Jack Dempsey

[Ivich]

Reisler was a barber and small time boxing promoter in NY. Attempting to get a percentage of both fighters as promoter, while managing Dempsey. Reisler basically gave up on Dempsey after the Lester fight, and reared his ugly head when he got wind of Dempsey's title fight with Willard. He demanded 30% and had to be paid off by Kearns and Rickard, who were getting 50% of Dempsey.

Kearns was getting 50%,the traditional; split for a manager being 30%. Rickard only got the profit he made on the Dempsey fights he promoted.

[QueensburyRules]

I'm talking about the first part of your post.Its like a compulsion with you.

- "- It's sorta like what grade U get kicked out of 63 years ago?"
I'm English I went to a Technical College.
I've all the reports of the fight, some gave it to Johnson some thought Dempsey worthy of a draw its irrelevant to the subject being discussed really.

- - Already figured U to be English.

U stated John Lester whooped Dempsey. That ain't what the prevailing press said, but it was a good, spirited fight deserving much better in the historical record than U gave it.


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[travestyny]

What do you suppose a fight between Dempsey and Langford, from August1919 onwards [when he was champion] would have drawn? Which promoters do you say/ think would have been prepared to promote such a match?
Can you name a promoter.site,date, purse bid ,for a Langford fight fromJuly1919 that Dempsey turned down ? Which wins during Dempsey's title reign do you think made Langford a credible title challenger?
When Reisler proposed the Langford fight Dempsey's; biggest purse had been $500 for the John Lester Johnson fight, of that Reisler took $400 leaving Dempsey $100,it made no sense for the barely 20 years old Dempsey to take on Langford at that time.
After his 2nd fight with Dempsey, GunBoat Smith,who holds a win over Langford stated Dempsey had improved out all all recognition.Dempsey had him down 10 times before flooring him for the count.Matching 36 years old half blind Sam with the Dempsey of Toledo would have been criminal. Pollack does not mention any white boxers stepping up to challenge Dempsey for that exhibition.
Nowhere in Pollack's book or Roger Kahn's or Randy Roberts is there mention of these numerous challenges for Dempsey to fight Langford ,neither is there any named promoter ,site, or purse details of such a proposed match.Don't you find that strange? You say Jeannette only lost 1 fight after the date of the proposed exhibition? Lets look at that
He had 8 fights and they were in chronological order
Andy Schrader 2-1-1 won
Tom Cowler 42-19-2 won
Bert Kenny10 -18-4 won
Clay Turner 33-10-1 won
Tom Cowler now43-21-2 won
Harry Wills .Lost
Bartley Madden 20-l1-5
Harry Gibson 0-0-0 Draw
Bert Kenny was a spar partner going back to Jack Johnson's era.
Clay Turner was a spar partner for Dempsey.
Cowler had been a decent fighter but was now washed up.

Do you think those wins, over that level of opposition amounts to anything significant?

It's obviously all fantasy fights, so I can't say how it turns out. If we are to go by fantasy fights, Anthony Joshua never loses to Andy Ruiz.


But the point is not whom you or I think would have won or what the matches would have drawn. The point is that Dempsey admit to being afraid of Langford and also admit that he would rather fight any two white men than Jeannette.

[Willie Pep 229]

Kearns was getting 50%,the traditional; split for a manager being 30%. Rickard only got the profit he made on the Dempsey fights he promoted.

I believe it is now governed by law to 33 1/3% - but then you end up with a trainer who gets 10% and God help you when the lawyers and accounts stick their hand out. Oh, and only then comes Uncle Sam.

I remember back in '71 they did some financial analysis on 'the fight' and stated that Frazier had the best deal in boxing because of the way the Phily buisness investors set him up. He was like a stock company and was going to get, before taxes, 54% of the purse.

Ali on the other hand had so many hands in his pocket that before taxes he was looking at 44%.

(Not sure if I got those numberd correct but sm certain it was low 50s vs. low 40s.)