Mike Tyson vs Rocky Marciano

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  • Hawkins
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    #241
    Originally posted by RossCA
    The thing is, if you take that all into consideration, how much of an advantage do you give modern fighters? And how can you really know how much of an advantage they have? What if you over gage the advantage? It will throw everything off. I don't think it's as big a factor as some people might think. In boxing you still need to know how to fight, have a good chin, and be dedicated to be an outstanding fighter. I think just for the fact that the heavyweight division isn't in that great of shape shows what I'm saying is true. Where's all the Mike Tysons and Evander Holyfields? There's a big motivating factor for everyone to be a non stoppable machine (MONEY) but we still don't see any evidence that modern medicine, nutrition, and training have a huge advantage. Don't get me wrong, there may be advantages but I think when taking that into consideration you can't over gage it because you'll short change some of our modern fighters that were very good regardless. I think the best example of this modern advantage would be Holyfield when he went up in weight from Cruiser to Heavy. I wouldn't count Tyson because he looked like that at 15. And this isn't any kind of an argument against you (yet lol) it's just where I stand on the subject. I'm not really sure where you stand on it though. For me, it's hard to classify Marciano, Dempsey, and Johnson with other champions because of special circumstances from those times that made them who they are. If we get into all that, this thread will get out of hand. I think we should wait until right thread comes up and then duke it out there. LOL
    Well I think the reason alot of the heavyweights are so substantial is because lack of experience. I think alot of them forsake an amateur career in order to get the money of a pro career. I'm sure thats not all of it, but I think it plays a huge part.

    Alot of the guys in the past had good amateur experience prior to turning pro but nowadays the division is so...welll, ****ty...that any heavy with a decent pro can turn pro and make some $$$$.

    But as far as matching eras, I do it for one reason. To take the huge weight advantages out of the picture. That alone should tell us how advanced alot of things have become because weight has gone up across the board. Guys are bigger, just a part of evolution in modern society.

    However, to back to what I was saying..I don't touch the reach advantages or height..but I do downplay the weight issue and base it more on the fighters overall skill-level and the things I have seen.

    Of course, if you take Marciano from 1952 and put him in 2007 he's going to look puny. Look at far training and nutrition alone have come. I just think it is more fair to base fighters on skill level alone instead of factoring in the whole weight issue..otherwise the matchups would be no fun. Everyone does it differently, I just prefer it that way.

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    • ROSS CALIFORNIA
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      #242
      Originally posted by Hawkins
      Well I think the reason alot of the heavyweights are so substantial is because lack of experience. I think alot of them forsake an amateur career in order to get the money of a pro career. I'm sure thats not all of it, but I think it plays a huge part.

      Alot of the guys in the past had good amateur experience prior to turning pro but nowadays the division is so...welll, ****ty...that any heavy with a decent pro can turn pro and make some $$$$.

      But as far as matching eras, I do it for one reason. To take the huge weight advantages out of the picture. That alone should tell us how advanced alot of things have become because weight has gone up across the board. Guys are bigger, just a part of evolution in modern society.

      However, to back to what I was saying..I don't touch the reach advantages or height..but I do downplay the weight issue and base it more on the fighters overall skill-level and the things I have seen.

      Of course, if you take Marciano from 1952 and put him in 2007 he's going to look puny. Look at far training and nutrition alone have come. I just think it is more fair to base fighters on skill level alone instead of factoring in the whole weight issue..otherwise the matchups would be no fun. Everyone does it differently, I just prefer it that way.
      Oh I completely disagree, no not really. I think your looking at things the right way. I still cant wait to see your top ten. I can see it now, Rocky Marciano......greatest of all time.LOL

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      • Hawkins
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        #243
        Originally posted by RossCA
        Oh I completely disagree, no not really. I think your looking at things the right way. I still cant wait to see your top ten. I can see it now, Rocky Marciano......greatest of all time.LOL
        Rocky Marciano...followed by George Chuvalo...Henry Cooper..Tommy Jackson lol

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        • them_apples
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          #244
          Based on skill? and What skill did Marciano have over Tyson?, and how can you forget physical attributes..in that case Foreman is the worst boxer ever.

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          • Hawkins
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            #245
            Originally posted by them_apples
            Based on skill? and What skill did Marciano have over Tyson?, and how can you forget physical attributes..in that case Foreman is the worst boxer ever.
            Move along, nothing to see here.

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            • ROSS CALIFORNIA
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              #246
              Originally posted by Hawkins
              Move along, nothing to see here.
              Oh!!!! He got you good Hawkins, he got you good.

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              • Hawkins
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                #247
                Originally posted by RossCA
                Oh!!!! He got you good Hawkins, he got you good.
                How, he didn't read my post at all (which is the norm) because nowhere in that post did I say to totally discard physical attributes. That is absurd.

                Hence the dismissal.

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                • ROSS CALIFORNIA
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                  #248
                  Originally posted by Hawkins
                  How, he didn't read my post at all (which is the norm) because nowhere in that post did I say to totally discard physical attributes. That is absurd.

                  Hence the dismissal.
                  I still say he got you LOL

                  Tyson wasn't just a little stronger than Marciano, he was way stronger than Marciano. In that case, it's senseless to go on with an analysis when matching two brawlers. It's a different story when the weaker fighter moves away from the power. Put it this way, Marciano wasn't ****** and he wasn't superman either. Mike would have had Marciano backing away from him which would have been new territory for the Rock. Marciano wasn't Ali, so he would have had a tough time getting leverage on his punches while moving back. In that case the fight might have gone 3 rounds, but if Marciano tried to be Superman, he would be stopped in the first. No question. LOL

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                  • Hawkins
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                    #249
                    Originally posted by RossCA
                    I still say he got you LOL

                    Tyson wasn't just a little stronger than Marciano, he was way stronger than Marciano. In that case, it's senseless to go on with an analysis when matching two brawlers. It's a different story when the weaker fighter moves away from the power. Put it this way, Marciano wasn't ****** and he wasn't superman either. Mike would have had Marciano backing away from him which would have been new territory for the Rock. Marciano wasn't Ali, so he would have had a tough time getting leverage on his punches while moving back. In that case the fight might have gone 3 rounds, but if Marciano tried to be Superman, he would be stopped in the first. No question. LOL
                    Find anywhere on any of these forums that I have said otherwise, I clearly gave Tyson the edge in many catergories. Yes I said I think Rocky hit harder because take away Tyson's speed and it diminishes the basis of his knockout power.

                    Tyson has the edge in strength and technique but Marciano has the edge in will, conditioning, toughness and guile. Some fights aren't won on physicality alone it's the intangibles sweety

                    If, and judging by your posting its a rather large if, you read my analysis I clearly state alot of the facts you bring out. If Marciano survived the early rounds his chances go up dramatically.

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                    • ROSS CALIFORNIA
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                      #250
                      Originally posted by Hawkins
                      Find anywhere on any of these forums that I have said otherwise, I clearly gave Tyson the edge in many catergories. Yes I said I think Rocky hit harder because take away Tyson's speed and it diminishes the basis of his knockout power.

                      Tyson has the edge in strength and technique but Marciano has the edge in will, conditioning, toughness and guile. Some fights aren't won on physicality alone it's the intangibles sweety

                      If, and judging by your posting its a rather large if, you read my analysis I clearly state alot of the facts you bring out. If Marciano survived the early rounds his chances go up dramatically.
                      Take away Tysons speed? It figures you would handicap the guy to make a point.LOL Ok I get it take away Tysons speed, make him hop on one foot with one hand tied behind his back and there's no way he could have beat Marciano.LOL

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