Mike Tyson vs Rocky Marciano

[ROSS CALIFORNIA]

How so? Heart is immeasurable. Mental toughness is holding up under adversity and sticking to certain things, such as gameplans and strategy and not becoming shaken. Yet that didn't happen. Heart is another way of saying you get up and continuing when no one else thinks you could. Two distinctly different things..

"Heart" wasn't the word you originally used so I won't comment on that. The way I've always looked at it, "mental toughness" meant not quiting or giving up in a fight, or not letting someone push you around or intimidate you to the point that it's effecting your boxing."Warrior" falls along those same lines. To me it doesn't make sense to describe a person as being a warrior but then having a lack of mental toughness. Maybe your meanings are different. Anyway you originally stated this

Rooney also stated, that Tyson would get very aggitated when he couldn't knock his man out in the first few rounds and he would have fight him tooth and nail not to deviate from his strategy because he seemingly lost the inclination to fight. That alone points to a lack of mental toughness

If he said that that was BS because Tyson never showed that until he bit Holyfield. That's why I said "actions speak louder than words" earlier. I don't agree mental toughness should be the word used here, it should be frustrated.

Where did I say Tyson was at his very best? I think I have clearly said many times his head wasn't on the fight. Yet, you can't turn around and say it wasn't in his prime as a fighter.

I've already stated many times that because he was out of the game mentally, I no longer considered him in his prime. Me and every one else on the face of the earth besides the Tyson haters.LOL If you don't take every aspect of the game into consideration then your final analysis is flawed, wrong, or incorrect. The mental aspect of the game is one of the issues you've been sidestepping. It leaves the impression you agree with me on it but if you admit it you'll admit your argument has been wrong. God knows we couldn't have that. LOL just playin

And again I ask you which point did I not address? Which question Did I not answer?

And again, I refer you to the quote above. LOL

Well, I didn't think it was a heated debate LOL And if I EVER get pissed because of something said on a message board it's time to hang it up. Getting pissed off over this is silly. Nuttin' but love But, in all honesty, I don't see where I have been indirect.

That might have been the wrong word to use, but God knows I won't admit it wasn't.LOL I more less meant not acknowledging certain points that I've made against points you keep making, like the mental aspect of the game and that being in your prime has to do with that and not just the physicality's alone.

I can see your point BUT I think you have it twisted. Being at your absolute best may = prime + mentality, but your prime is still the physical age at which you are physically at your peak.

O.k. if you look at being in your prime like that, no wonder you disagree. I can't change your views but your inability to look at boxing thoroughly, limits your understanding of this sport. But hey, we're not all born with those types of analytical abilities, so I won't hold it against you.LOL

Do I think Tyson of the first Holyfield fight was at his absolute prime? No, I don't. But I do think he still had some very good years left in him had he decided to stay on the right path. Especially when compared to a battle worn Evander. The Spinks fight was the last good fight of the Rooney Tyson and was at the very beginning of his downfall, the difference being he would have been able to get it all back had he pulled his head out of his ass.

I still think by that time it would have been too late. The main reason was the 4 years of complete inactivity. He was 29 in his first fight out of prison. It would have taken him at least a couple of years to get even close to what he was but he would have been too old by that time. Tysons style required him to be young. I think even 29 wouldn't have been prime years physically. He was 30 or 31 in the Holyfield fights, I no way consider that a prime age for boxing. Being in your prime at 30 or 31 requires a fighter to be seasoned, Tyson wasn't.

[Hawkins]

O.k. if you look at being in your prime like that, no wonder you disagree. I can't change your views but your inability to look at boxing thoroughly, limits your understanding of this sport. But hey, we're not all born with those types of analytical abilities, so I won't hold it against you.LOL


I still think by that time it would have been too late. The main reason was the 4 years of complete inactivity. He was 29 in his first fight out of prison. It would have taken him at least a couple of years to get even close to what he was but he would have been too old by that time. Tysons style required him to be young. I think even 29 wouldn't have been prime years physically. He was 30 or 31 in the Holyfield fights, I no way consider that a prime age for boxing. Being in your prime at 30 or 31 requires a fighter to be seasoned, Tyson wasn't.

I think, in all honesty we've run our course with this. But I will say I think the major sticking point is what exactly defines your prime years? To me it has always been about your physical peak. I agree being mentally prepared and mentally fit plays apart in being at your best, but I think it is seperate from your prime. Unlike your physical skills, your mentality typical doesn't erode over time.

Another sticking point. Is mental toughness and heart the same thing? By your description they are. But being able to get up or continue when you shouldn't be able too are totally different from being mentally in the game when faced with adversity or something that throws you off your game. Mike had plenty of heart, kept going in the face of a beating. But, that is vasty different from sticking to your guns when the other guy is imposing his will upon you.

I still don't see where I have dodged anything from you. But as far as Holyfield fight, no Mike could never got truly back to pre-pison form BUT he wasn't totally shot to the point he was after the williams/mcbride debacles. Mike still had plenty of gas in his tank. But you can't deny that at that point Holyfield was much more worn. Look at some of the wars he had been in? Tyson losing that fight is a huge mark against him in the respect of his overall standings in the pantheon of greats because that makes two fights where he was upset by the so called underdog.

[QuCongee]

Cmon, Marciano was a small heavyweight. The dude was like...190 lbs soaking wet.

Tyson would obliterate him in about 2 minutes.

[Mike Tyson77]

I think, in all honesty we've run our course with this. But I will say I think the major sticking point is what exactly defines your prime years? To me it has always been about your physical peak. I agree being mentally prepared and mentally fit plays apart in being at your best, but I think it is seperate from your prime. Unlike your physical skills, your mentality typical doesn't erode over time.

Another sticking point. Is mental toughness and heart the same thing? By your description they are. But being able to get up or continue when you shouldn't be able too are totally different from being mentally in the game when faced with adversity or something that throws you off your game. Mike had plenty of heart, kept going in the face of a beating. But, that is vasty different from sticking to your guns when the other guy is imposing his will upon you.

I still don't see where I have dodged anything from you. But as far as Holyfield fight, no Mike could never got truly back to pre-pison form BUT he wasn't totally shot to the point he was after the williams/mcbride debacles. Mike still had plenty of gas in his tank. But you can't deny that at that point Holyfield was much more worn. Look at some of the wars he had been in? Tyson losing that fight is a huge mark against him in the respect of his overall standings in the pantheon of greats because that makes two fights where he was upset by the so called underdog.

So who was your pick?

[Hawkins]

So who was your pick?

Here, it is. My prediction(s)

Lets look at their styles first - Mike Tyson. He's a straight ahead swarming puncher, with good handspeed, who has good defense via the constant head movement and bobbing and weaving. He comes at you and waits for his openings and unleashes powerful combinations but at the same time is hard to hit because of his defense. Also has a good chin and can take a hard punch. Has trouble with fighters who show no fear, and take the fight to him. Especially fighters with an excellent jab and decent movement. Known to get frustrated after the early rounds, get away from the aforementionedand revert to head hunting.

Would everyone agree with this assesment?

Marciano - also a swarmer and bruiser who only moves forward. Has a very deceptive defense where as he is always moving, bending and bobbing and ducking. He comes at you and throws powerful punches relentlessly, opening or not, hitting you anywhere and everywhere. Tireless and gets stronger as the bout goes on. Good chin and can take a hard punch. Has trouble with slick boxers and technicians, and guys who can stay on the outside and stick and move with good fundamental skills.

Would everyone agree with this assesment?


Going from these assesments it wouldn't be easy for either man. I think this wouldn't be a difficult match up for both sides. I think the chin of either man somewhat negates the power of the other one.

Tyson would come out and find someone who wouldn't back up or give him an inch and stay on top of him, and also someone who is deceptively hard to hit with a clean punch. Marciano would also find someone who comes at him, who uses good defensive head and body movement thus making him hard to hit cleanly, and someone who uses crisp and fast punches in combination.

I think it would play out in one of two ways. First scenario. Tyson comes out and engages in an all out slug fest with Marciano. His punches finding their mark and bloodying Rocky. Marciano trying to counter-attack but not effectively being able to so. I could see Tyson stopping Marciano early (within the first 3 rounds) on cuts or possibly ref stoppage. I don't think he outright knocks Marciano cold, but a ref stoppage or doctor stoppage would be entirely possible.

Second, Marciano weathers the early storm and takes Tyson in the later rounds. Because of Tyson's frustration at not taking him out early he gets sloppy, becomes a headhunter and starts getting tagged with Marciano's relentless onslaught and is worn down. It's entirely possible that Tyson loses by decision or is stopped by TKO or KO in the late rounds. Unlike Marciano we have seen Tyson wilt under a constant offensive onslaught against him and get KO'd so it's a plausible outcome.

Regardless, it would be a war and something to see.

[ROSS CALIFORNIA]

I think, in all honesty we've run our course with this. But I will say I think the major sticking point is what exactly defines your prime years? To me it has always been about your physical peak. I agree being mentally prepared and mentally fit plays apart in being at your best, but I think it is seperate from your prime. Unlike your physical skills, your mentality typical doesn't erode over time.

I think it will be about a day before we get into this again.LOL Tyson wasn't typical, so if your a person looking at how all other fighters did in their primes then look at Tyson and try to apply their patterns to his, you'll be way off. I think the whole disagreement boils down to where the cut off point was for his prime. I and a lot of other experts seen problems starting in his first Bruno fight. And it wasn't just a coincidence that that was his first fight under new trainers. I think the majority of guys that fallowed Tyson would agree that the Spinks fight was the last great Tyson we seen. You've stated that that cut off was somewhere around the Holyfield fight. You have got to be alone in that.

Another sticking point. Is mental toughness and heart the same thing? By your description they are. But being able to get up or continue when you shouldn't be able too are totally different from being mentally in the game when faced with adversity or something that throws you off your game. Mike had plenty of heart, kept going in the face of a beating. But, that is vasty different from sticking to your guns when the other guy is imposing his will upon you.

Your using one aspect of mental toughness that means more than just one thing, and using it as an example why it's different from "heart" that we're not even talking about. We were talking about "warrior" not "heart". But besides all that it seems like your implying that Tyson got off his game plan somewhere in one of those fights with Douglas or Holyfield or both. If you are, name specifically where and how.

I still don't see where I have dodged anything from you. But as far as Holyfield fight, no Mike could never got truly back to pre-pison form BUT he wasn't totally shot to the point he was after the williams/mcbride debacles. Mike still had plenty of gas in his tank. But you can't deny that at that point Holyfield was much more worn. Look at some of the wars he had been in? Tyson losing that fight is a huge mark against him in the respect of his overall standings in the pantheon of greats because that makes two fights where he was upset by the so called underdog.

It means something to you and you alone my friend.LOL Enough said about that.

[ROSS CALIFORNIA]

Here, it is. My prediction(s)

Oh, he knocks Marciano out cold with his left foot twitching. LOL There's no two ways about it, Marciano down and out quick. Too small period. Like fighting a twelve year old!

[ROSS CALIFORNIA]

Cmon, Marciano was a small heavyweight. The dude was like...190 lbs soaking wet.

Tyson would obliterate him in about 2 minutes.

Finally, someone with some sense.LOL

[Hawkins]

I think it will be about a day before we get into this again.LOL Tyson wasn't typical, so if your a person looking at how all other fighters did in their primes then look at Tyson and try to apply their patterns to his, you'll be way off. I think the whole disagreement boils down to where the cut off point was for his prime. I and a lot of other experts seen problems starting in his first Bruno fight. And it wasn't just a coincidence that that was his first fight under new trainers. I think the majority of guys that fallowed Tyson would agree that the Spinks fight was the last great Tyson we seen. You've stated that that cut off was somewhere around the Holyfield fight. You have got to be alone in that.

Well you're saying Tyson wasn't at his best. Which is true, if you look at the way he was against Spinks, Berbick, Thomas etc. However, you can't compare him to other swarmers because up until the Douglas fight he had never been a truly grueling fight that most fighters of his type have to endure. That is builds up the wear and tear on a fighter.

You bring up trainers, well for the record Aaron Snowell (the Don King stooge) sucks. He had no clue how to handle Tyson. Tyson would come inside and leave huge openings for his opponent. His chin was exposed. Very careless instruction from his corner.

For the record, I agree that losing Rooney was a huge blow (one I think Tyson regretted after the fact) and that played a major part in his downfall because Rooney was well versed in the teachings and training style of Cus. Snowell would be lucky to train a dog to sit from the way it looks. Again our only major conflict on this is the definition of 'prime'.

Your using one aspect of mental toughness that means more than just one thing, and using it as an example why it's different from "heart" that we're not even talking about. We were talking about "warrior" not "heart". But besides all that it seems like your implying that Tyson got off his game plan somewhere in one of those fights with Douglas or Holyfield or both. If you are, name specifically where and how.

To being a 'warrior' is akin to saying someone has 'heart'. As for the Douglas/Holyfield bouts. Tyson wasn't anywhere near the same in the Douglas fight however he did have moments in the early goings but just slowly dwindled into a one shot head hunter.

Holyfield fight the same deal. He started decently but once Evander got in his face he wilted mentally. When someone isn't intimidated Mike loses his disposition. That is mental toughness. Totally different 'heart' 'warrior' 'heart of a warrior' - whatever lol

[Jim Jeffries]

Cmon, Marciano was a small heavyweight. The dude was like...190 lbs soaking wet.

Tyson would obliterate him in about 2 minutes.

So I guess a 250 pound David Tua SMOKES Tyson in like 90 seconds, RIGHT?