could tyson have beat ali if tyson fought like he fought mitch green?

[BKM-]

Crickey, you beat me to it again

[Verstyle]

On the "chin" issue.....Chins don't get better with time. If anything, they get worse like a piece of granite that you pound on with a sledge over and over again over a period of years....sooner or later, it's going to crack.

You either have whiskers or you don't. Ali getting dropped early in his career had more to do with him always being on his toes than anything else. When he got older, he knew he couldn't "Float Like a Butterfly" as much any more, so he had his feet planted more often. That, and he'd acquired the confidence of knowing he had a good chin from all the times he'd taken a solid shot. A young fighter, or a young Ali, to be more specific, didn't want to get hit and didn't know he could take a punch because he rarely had to; and, despite all of that outward bravado, was human and had self-doubts on the inside. Not knowing you can take a punch can get you knocked down just as surely as not believing in yourself can cost you a fight.

maybe it did have to be tested to see it. but i think it was more obvious that he was hurt before he fought frazier

[K-DOGG]

maybe it did have to be tested to see it. but i think it was more obvious that he was hurt before he fought frazier

Well, as I'd alluded to, mentality is everything when it comes to taking a punch. Remember, Ali, when he fought Frazier, was someone who had be denied the right to fight for 3 and a half years. He missed it all that time because he loved doing it.....and he realized how much he'd taken it for granted.

Not only was the Ali that fought from 1960-1964 different physically from the one who fought from 1970-1981, he was a different man, mentally. The Ali of the 1960's hadn't really become a "man" yet. He grew in more ways than one during his exile.

[K-DOGG]

Crickey, you beat me to it again

Hey, at least we're on the same page.

[Franko]

maybe it did have to be tested to see it. but i think it was more obvious that he was hurt before he fought frazier

I pretty much agree with everything K-Dogg has posted. I really don't think that it was more obvious that he was hurt before he fought Frazier! Prior to his exile Ali was a different fighter, he adjusted his style accordingly after his exile. Frazier 1 was obviously his toughest fight to date after the exile.
As far as i recall Ali was dropped twice prior to the first Frazier fight, and he beat hard punchers like Liston, Cooper, Chuvalo, and Folley. Obviously he was hurt against Henry Cooper in their first fight, who wouldn't have been from a shot like that? But again, he didn't develop a stronger chin over time. His style prior to Frazier meant that he could avoid punches a lot easier than he could in the latter part of his career.

[butterfly1964]

I pretty much agree with everything K-Dogg has posted. I really don't think that it was more obvious that he was hurt before he fought Frazier! Prior to his exile Ali was a different fighter, he adjusted his style accordingly after his exile. Frazier 1 was obviously his toughest fight to date after the exile.
As far as i recall Ali was dropped twice prior to the first Frazier fight, and he beat hard punchers like Liston, Cooper, Chuvalo, and Folley. Obviously he was hurt against Henry Cooper in their first fight, who wouldn't have been from a shot like that? But again, he didn't develop a stronger chin over time. His style prior to Frazier meant that he could avoid punches a lot easier than he could in the latter part of his career.

Good post.

[Verstyle]

I pretty much agree with everything K-Dogg has posted. I really don't think that it was more obvious that he was hurt before he fought Frazier! Prior to his exile Ali was a different fighter, he adjusted his style accordingly after his exile. Frazier 1 was obviously his toughest fight to date after the exile.
As far as i recall Ali was dropped twice prior to the first Frazier fight, and he beat hard punchers like Liston, Cooper, Chuvalo, and Folley. Obviously he was hurt against Henry Cooper in their first fight, who wouldn't have been from a shot like that? But again, he didn't develop a stronger chin over time. His style prior to Frazier meant that he could avoid punches a lot easier than he could in the latter part of his career.

all i said is it was more obvious he was hurt . as in u can literally see it

[Franko]

all i said is it was more obvious he was hurt . as in u can literally see it

What are your examples of this? Sure he was hurt against Cooper in the first fight, but despite the circumstances i.e. torn glove etc, he still did very well to recover from Henry's Hammer and go on to stop him in the fifth round as he predicted.
Ali was most certainly hurt after his exile! The difference is his style had changed so it was more apparent how strong/weak his chin was because he was taking more punches than he did in the first stage of his career, and he was also facing a better level of competition IMO. Therefore, if it was more obvious in the first stage of his career that he was hurt, then how come a better level of opponent couldn't hurt him equally or more in the latter part of his career?
Ali would sometimes play act when he was hurt (especially against Frazier) aiming to give his opponent the impression that he wasn't hurt, but this sometimes made it more obvious that he was IMO.
The bottom line is that i don't think that it was more obvious that Ali was hurt in the first stage of his career. His style changed after his exile, not his 'chin!'

[butterfly1964]

What are your examples of this? Sure he was hurt against Cooper in the first fight, but despite the circumstances i.e. torn glove etc, he still did very well to recover from Henry's Hammer and go on to stop him in the fifth round as he predicted.
Ali was most certainly hurt after his exile! The difference is his style had changed so it was more apparent how strong/weak his chin was because he was taking more punches than he did in the first stage of his career, and he was also facing a better level of competition IMO. Therefore, if it was more obvious in the first stage of his career that he was hurt, then how come a better level of opponent couldn't hurt him equally or more in the latter part of his career?
Ali would sometimes play act when he was hurt (especially against Frazier) aiming to give his opponent the impression that he wasn't hurt, but this sometimes made it more obvious that he was IMO.
The bottom line is that i don't think that it was more obvious that Ali was hurt in the first stage of his career. His style changed after his exile, not his 'chin!'

Good post.

[Mr. Ryan]

i'm looking at the frazier vs.ali fight and when frazier goes in he gets hit alot cause his hands were down,but he still got to ali. now with tyson when he went in with mitch green he used wide bob and weaves and kept his hands up and threw more then just the left look when going in,and threw the jab to get in also.I know u cant compare green to ali but they both threw alot in that fight and tyson reminded me of frazier in that fight. example of how tyson fought green.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBChe576oRI

Let me explain something to people about this fight. Cus D'Amato had a word for fighters like Mike Tyson. It's a weasel. A weasel is the opposite of someone with character, someone who was mentally strong enough to persevere and win through adversity. Mike Tyson never had that.

Tyson's hands were fast, but Ali's were faster. Tyson, because he always came in with his feet in perfect position for a power shot, was slow of foot. He would be lost by the movement of Ali. Most fighters have only one direction they can elude from, either the left or the right. Ali was so good with his feet, you get the impression he could slip through the middle if he wanted to.

Do you think that Ali, who got inside the head of better fighters than Tyson, would have been quiet and given Tyson free reign to intimidate at the press conferences? Let me tell you something. Ali would've been on his ass worse than he was with Frazier at the press conferences, embarrassing him and making him look like an ignorant animal. Tyson would have been destroyed at the press con alone.

Tyson's worst tendency is to get frustrated. When things aren't going his way, he'll start to go crazy and winging one punch at a time. You DO NOT throw one shot at a time and expect not to get countered. For Thomas Hauser's bio of Ali, he asked 5 people close to Tyson, Bill Cayton, Teddy Atlas, Jose Torres, Floyd Patterson, and Kevin Rooney who would win if Tyson-Ali fought. EVERY ONE OF THEM picked Ali, with Torres and Atlas picking Tyson to quit.

The people who see Tyson and are like "No one can beat Tyson, Tyson is from the streets" live in a rap and hip hop fantasy world where being the champion of their block makes them the ****.