Viti_BenWa

Well fortunately VK is going to be ordained an ATG regardless of what any poll produces. And deservedly so. When you have among the highest KO ratio's with only 2 losses, both of which were surrounded in controversy, fought the heaviest opposition with some of the cleanest records of any boxer, never lost more than 2 rounds, never got behind on points and never got knocked down... It's kind of hard to seriously knock the guy isn't it :lol1: There's an excellent case for Vitali being the GOAT HW! Let alone questioning whether or not he is an ATG! That's borderline crazy. Lol, OK! :biggthump

trollolol Yes, I couldn't be bothered to respond after reading that bit of ridiculousness.

Are you saying his resume is ATG? Or is it based on you particular like for him? Vitali was a very good and awkward fighter but his resume is pretty soft. Not an atg resume but I'd bet he be one of the most dangerous fighters any time in history.

I think Wilder would feature pretty highly on Vitali's resume I'd give him that. All those old timers though I think Vitali would have swatted down without even breaking a sweat. Sure it can be viewed as an opinion. But some of the initial things you said were ridiculous. Obviously taken at large, those older blokes had better ring stamina than current heavies, same as speed, because they were about 50lbs lighter on average! The same size! Muhammad Ali's average opponent weight was just over 200lbs, the average fighters weight in his era was just below 200lbs. Vitali Klitschko's average opponent weight was almost 240lbs. The average fighters weight in his era was 225lbs. Previous eras too Muhammad's got lighter and lighter! Kind of ****s over your little theory there :lol1: You also shared another fantasy with us.. That previous boxers had better experience. Let me tell you that the total experience (ammy+pro+sparring) today is many times greater than past. Fights only (ammy+pro) it is clearly better today. Considering pro records, many current HW's have more experience than even past CHAMPS! Frazier for instance, only 32 fights! But the most telling figures I have for you are these ones... Muhammad's era was half HW and half CW. And the further back from there the more cruiser it was. When you take a record of those old guys from Muhammad's era for example (remember previous eras it's worse) HALF of those opponents are not what today we'd call a HW record. Whatever boxers did at lower weights, that's not the same as TRUE HW experience. When a current boxer presents a HW record, unless he WAS a former CW or something, ALL of the opponents on their record weigh over 200lbs! What's more the opponents those guys beat to compile those records yesteryear ALSO composed of sub200 boxers. So the heavyweight worthiness of those records are approximately 5 times less than current fighters! Otherwise all the HW's like Haye and Byrd and Chambers would have all of their cruiser fights considered HW fights as well and it'd be clear just how good these guys really were too compared to old timers. There is so much more that meets the eye when considering VK's career. Champs of previous times would be cans today! Again I'll ask, why do you have to rate a heavyweight of the past by the standards of this era? Put VK back then and they're still heavyweights. And please don't go trying to compare Votali's resume to Frazier's. Joe beat nearly three times the Rings top 10 rated heavies as VK Including Ali who is universally accepted as either number one or two all time. That he did it in far less fight just shows how much more impressive his experience was. Its like trying to compare Floyd's resume with Ray Leonard.

Sanders was one of the fastest and most powerful heavyweights ever. He was a big guy too, with a strong chin. Frazier and Louis were chinny midgets in direct comparison. Sanders was pretty quick for his size, but didn't he lose to Nate Tubbs?

Joe Louis was allowed to fight a former lightweight. http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=9007&cat=boxer Jack Johnson fought a former lightweight for the world "colored" heavyweight title. This guy weighed just 156 during the actual fight with Johnson. He started at lightweight, and was shorter and had a shorter reach than Floyd Mayweather: http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=11023&cat=boxer Difference being both those guys are now considered all time greats and were beating top rated fighters at heavyweight before and after getting their shots. Not a very good example.

Billy Conn started at lightweight: http://boxrec.com/show_display.php?show_id=11497 Chris Byrd started at light heavyweight: http://boxrec.com/media/index.php?title=Fight:6827 And was at heavyweight by his 4th pro fight: http://boxrec.com/show_display.php?show_id=5824 And by his 8th pro fight in 1995, was up to 217: http://boxrec.com/show_display.php?show_id=5824 There was 25 pounds difference between Wlad and Byrd in their 2000 fight, compare that to the 42 pounds difference between Jack Johnson and Philadelphia Jack O'Brien, who weighed just 162, and fought much of his career at welterweight. There was 29 pounds difference between Jack Johnson and 156 pound Sam Langford when they fought for the "colored" heavyweight title. I'm not trying to discredit Johnson, I'm just making the comparison to defend Wlad from the unfair criticism be's being given by his obsessive haters like LacedUp and VG_Addict. Its pretty much universally accepted WK is a top 10-15 heavyweight all time. VK standing and resume on the other hand are much more debatable.

Isn't that exactly what is happening to accommodate past greats? Granted I haven't read the entire thread, but I don't see anyone degrading VK. I seen many including must say he'd be a top fighter in any era. But when you look into his resume its not very good. You can say what you want about Ali, but its a given he's fought the best heavyweight comp in history. By distorting the facts of the Cooper fight isn't going to change that bruh.

Do you realize if a site admin checks your IP address they'll know who you are? Just like they checked "Barry Allen" and found it was you. You're making it obvious by bumping your own old thread. :lol1: Dude, what the hell are talking about?

It's a resume that is topped only by 2 others.. Wladimir Klitschko Lennox Lewis.. Evander Holyfield also might have fought arguably better opposition too but he lost to a lot of them and much of his record was CW. Besides that I'd add Ali, Frazier, Liston, Tyson, Holmes, Marciano, Charles, Jeffries, Johnson, Langford, Wills, Dempsey and a host of others. VK is a hall of fame fighter in my eyes, not an all time great.

The fact those guys they beat could be rated so highly is simply an indication of how weak the era was. No, put VK back in those eras and they were NOT all HW's by the definition we use today, which is what counts. The HW limit was once around 150lbs. Do you consider them HW's as well? Joe Frazier's HW record is 13-4 (green bum) Ali's HW record is 28-5 (a B or C grade boxer) Of course Cruiserish experience still counts. But the difference is that most of the time the old timers significantly outweighed those opponents. Today they by virtue of the limit both have to be sub200. It would be frightening to think what someone like Chris Arreola could do to past boxers, let alone a VK! HOLY SH*T, I could actually feel brain cells dying as I read that post. It was like a bad acid trip where reality is warped and skewered. For gods sake Elroy, puff, puff, pass!! You shouldn't be hogging whatever you're smoking all to yourself!! You are out there! :rofl:

You need to check the definition of "universally" again. How is this? He pretty my h universally accepted on boxing forums.

That certainly isn't true though. VK's opponents would not have even been ALLOWED to knock out a lot of past greats opponents. If VK instead, say fought the same career opponents as Muhammad Ali or Joe Louis for example.. He would have been pelted with oranges for cherry picking such weak opposition. Relatively speaking, their opponents might have been better.. Absolutely speaking VK's opponents were so much more dangerous it isn't really debatable. No, Vitali WOULD have been allowed to fight them in their era. It seems absurd VK always has to fight in this era for a comparison when past greats fought guys of comparable size, better experience and better stamina. I can easily see Joe Louis beating VK. I can see a fighter like Jimmy Young troubling him just the way Chris Byrd did. Frazier, easy to envision beating him. Joe Walcott spells trouble with his foot work though I don't think he would win. Vitali is a very good fighter, and again, no reasonable fight fan would deny that. But his comp was soft, there are no if, ands or buts about it. He'll be remembered as a guy who could have been an all time great and even should have, but lacked the resume due to fighting alphabet nobodies instead of the best fighters of his era. Maybe I'm right, maybe your right. These are just our opinions and only time with tell where he is ranked historically. I'd bet my last breath it will never be near the top 10 though.

No he ****ing isn't! Charr was not a "great" opponent for Vitali. He was not a bum. He's only lost 2 fights and both were to the upper echelons of HW boxing. The problem with you you bastard is you can give your past heroes opponents passes as decent opposition when they had multiple losses but not for guys like Charr who have barely lost! And I don't even want to mention the weight! How do you figure Charr was a great opponent?

Of course he could. And that's not an opinion I just came too. See unlike you with your pathological defaming of Ali, Frazier, I respect the klitschkos as quality fighters, because I actually know a bit about boxing, and from my own experience in it I learned to respect EVERY fighter. From the guy with a losing record fighting for $400, to the world champ making millions. Vitalis solid chin means he's going to pose a tough fight for anyone. His lack of speed could find him in a surprising amount of trouble against guys that can close distance quickly though. Very well said.

No because then the loser would be called a bum. I don't this k so. They're both easily the 2 best heavyweights of the last ten years. That can only enhance a legacy.

Look Viti/ or JAB if it is you... It's not that I think Vitali's opponents **** over any others, that's clearly not the case. But VK's opponents are MUCH better than given credit for. I could go through the OP list and offer a much better appraisal for each and every one.. Some just a few decent facts, some I could offer much better. The thing is, you can say Lewis or Wlad fought stronger opponents and you might be right. But the difference is arguable and not so striking that you would declare VK's resume as lacking! VK did fight some pretty dangerous opponents and managed to dispatch all of them! There's no guarantee Lewis or Wlad could have handled some of VK's opponents as well and much reason to believe VK could have handled similarly opponents of Lewis and Wlad. There is no guarantee no other top heavyweight in history wouldn't have walked through VK's resume just as easily. You have your opinion and others have theirs. :dunno:

Well Ali lost to Henry Cooper in most peoples mind but only won due to smelling salts and stalling... pathetic cheating tactics that's a win for Cooper via DQ of Ali. He robbed Ken Norton in the third fight he was lucky with Earnie Shaver very lucky! Jimmy Young aswell... But dat no count doe Ali past it den :crying: Vitali was beating on fools from his 20s to 40s what is Ali excuse? Smelling sets or no smelling salts, Ali bounced right back up after the knockdown. Not to mention those smelling salts were legal at the time. Not to mention Ali stopped Cooper the next round. Not to mention it was in 'Enry's own backyard as was the rematch. I this k its a bit out of line to say Ali cheated. And you should look into the actual time it took to fix the torn glove rather believing all the tall tales and just going with it. I never understood why people feel the need to degrade great fighters to lift their own favorites up.

Somehow I don't think Wilder would "quite" have the record he does had he had VK's opponents instead. And I'm not sure Wilder's chances against VK would have been especially high either. He's not proven! I'd pick Wilder to beat everyone on VK's resume except Lewis and Byrd. That is pretty telling about Vitali's comp since Deontay hasn't proven a thing as of yet.

That VK is an ATG is so far beyond question it's ridiculous! Seems most disagree according to the poll. He was a very good fighter, no doubt about that. But his resume is very weak considering his talent.

The Cunningham KD of Fury proved absolutely nothing anyway, that point was irrelevant. Fury convincingly swatted down Cunningham, the flash KD was nothing more than Fury clowning around. Against WK he'd never be so stupid. Except I doubt it'd make a difference to the outcome. Why is it the Cunningham knockdown was nothing, but its a huge deal that Ali was knocked down by Cooper? There was less weight discrepancy, and Cooper was actually known to pack a wallop. No?

Jab: Wlad Defense: Fury ring generalship: Wlad ring IQ: Wlad stamina: Fury heart: Fury combination punching: Fury adaptability: Fury power: Fury star power: Fury experience: Wlad work ethic: Wlad chin: Fury better bodywork: Fury more effective hooks: Fury NSB draw power: Fury I have Fury taking his jab away in the early rounds, pressuring him, and forcing the fight inside, then systematically breakign him down to a late stoppage in the 10th, in a FOTY candidate. What say you? Wladimir by 4th round massacre!

Amazing what Canelo has done at Age 23 has anyone done as much as him current or past greats? Many fighters have accomplished more by the same age. Billy Conn, Wilfred Benitez and Mike Tyson are just a few that jump to mind. This is not a bad reflection on Alverez though. I love the way he fights and his willingness to take tough fights. He's certainly a throw back fighter himself.

Froch GGG Wilder Stevenson Kovalov

Wow. No just no. As much as i hate to admit, Wlad is prob one of the strongest heavyweights of all time. Fury is much more entertaining, but also dog sh*t. Agreed. I don't see any way Fury could beat Wladimir.

Nope. He's an unskilled cruiseweight bum. Holyfield is just a nostalgic worshipper of the good old days when he fought, back in 2008. Athletes have evolved so much since then. :rofl::rofl::rofl:

Boring, boring fight. Marquez would have to press because Khan would always be on the move and unwilling to engage. I think Khan could get the nod here, but it'd be a dreary affair. Jauns age is starting to catch up, but he's still a great fighter so it would be no surprise if he won.

Like he was scared of engaging against Collazo and Maidana? Don't play coy with me :lol1: he engages in the offensive game plenty of times, he isn't doing a Lara put it that way. Yes Khan utilizes foot work and shoots in with combinations and moves out but he actually is a pretty offensive fighter when you watch him. You don't knock Collazo down several times when you're not sitting down on your punches. You're comparing Collazo and Maidana's styles to Marquez, really? Much different fighters from JMM, and styles make fights. Khan will play it safe if at all possible. He's not going to make the same mistakes he did against Garcia while in with an older but more ring savvy veteran.

Boxers are not scared of each other. Wilder by ko.

I think Ward might fight him if it was on PPV. That's what Ward's interested in, the so-called "next level" in his view. It's not a PPV fight though, and I'm not sure it ever will be. I agree that Ward probably beats him at 168. I don't think its PPV either. It could be if Ward would get off his ass and make some fights. Doesn't matter how talented you are if the fans don't know you. The guy could be great but he's pissing his career away.