Some pretty good perspectives here - I like it. My opinions on a few things I read in this thread:
1) "Ricky is too big." - a non-factor, Manny's power is increasing with every weight move.
2) "The fight will depend on Manny's ability/inability to take body shots" - possibly - although his conditioning and core training regimen are truly second to none.
3) "this is a pretty straightforward fight for Ricky" - very true - and probably the biggest factor in this fight. The fact that Ricky comes straight at you is tailor-made for Manny. He will be able to tee off with both hands with relative ease.
Noone can question Hatton's heart and tenacity, but MP is even more tenacious, IMO.
Factor/advantage:
Power - even
Speed - Manny
Stamina - Manny
Defense - Manny
Counterpuncher - Manny
I'm real interested to see Ricky after more time in camp with Floyd Sr. - I didn't see a lot of changes in him in the first fight paired with him. If he can pick up and apply the defensive tips that he gets - it could change things a bit. But in the end - I think Manny is just too fast and has too good of footwork and will probably stop Ricky on cuts around 8 or 9.
Looking forward to it, for sure.
-The Ref
lets get real. almost nobody gave him a chance. take a look at the threads before the match. dlh was favored to win because logic points out he should.
I'm being very real. What logic are you referring to that Oscar should have won? The fact that he had multiple titles at multiple weight classes? The fact that he was a bigger fighter than Manny, both in stature and reputation? The fact that he had more "big fight" experience? I base my personal logic on the fights that I've seen, and based upon that - I felt that Oscar had a puncher's chance; at best to beat Manny.
-The Ref
It'd be an entertaining fight - but probably the lowest punch-landed total in history. PBF would run, or do his best limbo and Sweet Pea would do too much show-boating. I'd watch it.
Short answer - no. PW would frustrate and confuse PBF.
-The Ref
much more to a fighter who had one fight at 135. and you were suppose to beat this guy...
The only people that said Oscar was "supposed to" beat Manny - were those that rely far too much on marquee names and don't look at the entire breadth of work for Manny, and accept the decline/change in Oscar's skills. The only real argument for Oscar to beat Manny was that he was the bigger fighter...a gross miscalculation by all that thought that was going to be the deciding factor in that bout.
The Ref
My $.02...
Oscar lost that fight - because he had NEVER seen anything remotely close to what MP brings to the ring. Oscar's stamina was fine - his conditioning, fine - and I don't buy into the talk that he was "too lean". He simply got beat by a guy that is at a different level. MP's stamina is the absolute best in the entire sport - maybe all-time. He hits you from ALL angles - with power - and hits you while moving TO those angles. Couple that with a very very solid chin, and that's why he is what he is. Oscar has relegated himself to boxing like a heavyweight...stalk...stalk...set...punch...stalk...stalk...set...punch. NO fighter can do that against MP and not get stroked over and over. I can't remember the last fight that Oscar was up on his toes and moving. When you've never faced a boxer that never allows you to rest, or to get set - and is just strafing you over and over - AND you can't counter-punch...you're done. Oscar had no answers - and it was a tough reality to accept, he had no choice but to acknowledge the fact that there was no way he was going to beat Manny - and was only going to get busted up in trying to. Styles make fights - and as big of a DLH fan as I've always been, I see this to be true: even his prime I don't think he would have beaten the Manny of today. I only care about 2 fights happening in the near future, and shame on them if they don't happen.
JMM vs. MP (Manny needs to make this fight happen and win - convincingly - it's the last little piece to solidifying himself as one of the all-time P4P greats)
or
PBF vs. MP (if Floyd wants his name to be listed with the all-time greats - he HAS to make this fight happen - until then he's just another good fighter)
- TheRef
Arreola is a joke - seriously people. Chambers has talent - but needs to get with a good trainer that can provide a solid break between what he needs to do - and his family telling him what/how to do it. Removing Sr. as his trainer was smart - but he still doesn't have the right guy, IMO.
-The Ref
I use 14oz Winning. I was gonna get 16's but not much difference and the price goes up by 30 bucks.
I don't think cost is an issue for either of them. :) I use Grant 16's.
Nice post. :) I give credit to DG; but, I also think that was the most uninspired BJ Flores I've ever seen. Some of it may very likely have been due to Green's neutralization, by both solid defense and distance; but I also think that BJ was hoping to "just do enough" to win rounds, and by doing so let Green steal several in the last 30 seconds. I did think that the judges scores were a tad wide, all things considered. It will be interesting to see where Flores' management takes him next. I don't see Green trying to make the move to HW anytime soon.
-Ref
No Floyd was turning it up on him zab hit him with a low blow. Matter fact I remember his father telling him in his ear to do that sh1t.
Then...do you remember why he told him to do it? ;)
-Ref
Yea Pac got hurt in there, I'm not sure why some of them said he wasn't. But like I said, what do you expect Pac to do when he's getting punched by a guy that's 15+ lbs right. If anything suprised me it was Margarito that got hurt by Pac who was smaller.
Manny made several statements post-fight that he was hurt during the bout. I believe he said that he was "lucky to escape the 7th round", in fact. Manny got hit with some vicious uppercuts against Clottey and some very solid shots by Cotto...and just kept coming. There can be no questioning his chin, IMO.
-Ref
respectfully, floyd did agree to fight him in january but manny refused citing the ost request. If you believe what you posted so be it. But doesn't the fact that floyd agreed in january in any way factor into your thinking about him being scared?
Manny agreed to the testing - the cut-off date was the last and only; remaining question...to which FMJ wouldn't agree. I don't think FMJ is "scared" - he's a boxer; you don't - no, you CAN'T; get into the ring if you have any fear about the guy across from you. Fear can and does drive you to train - but once it's for real, the desire to be great drives the best of them. Like I said, Floyd is smart. But, I think he's a business man first, fighter second. He'll be the first to tell you - he cares about the money and the legacy. Well, if he truly cares about either - he can't NOT take a fight with Manny. Manny's beating of Margarito has taken the last bit of "yeah, but" out of the excuse if FMJ should beat Manny. If the fight is made, and he beats Manny Pacquiao; he earned it - no excuses that he beat a smaller, weaker fighter can EVER be made. If the fight doesn't happen, then the only excuse can be - is that he doesn't want to fight him and take the chance of tarnishing his perfect record. That's fine. But I hope he understands that his legacy will never be what he thinks it is - or possibly what it could be.
-Ref
Oh...that silly Zab Judah...he so crazy. In all seriousness, I hope someone has informed his family and close friends...clearly this is a cry for help...
TheRef
Pac
Gamboa (I'm eagerly awaiting a JML matchup)
Donaire
Chris John
Valero
I don't count either of the Klitchko's - as that division is dead to me.
TheRef
Margarito had gloves filled (probably) with plaster - and he didn't faze Clottey. I wouldn't be "surprised" if Pac KO'd him - I could believe a late TKO from a relentless attack, but I don't think Clottey would be hurt. He's proven his chin countless times - it's his heart and his attention span that are always in question.
TheRef
All I know is - MP is not just beating his opponents - he is absolutely dominating them in every facet of the game. That being said - I don't believe MP vs. SSM, PBF or JMM is a mismatch...obviously.
Why is one being blamed for the fight not happening when both are to blame. Pac was the reason for the failure for the first set of negotiatons; Floyd is responsible for the second set of negotiations failing. They're 1-1; blame both.
True statement, well put.
I guess I'm in the minority as an unbiased fella that thinks that PBF either flat out knows he can't beat Manny, or he has serious doubts - enough of which make him continue to make excuses why the fight WON'T happen, instead of why it should. Like...the fact that he wants it...which he hasn't said.
My personal strong opinions based upon 30 + years in the boxing game:
PBF is slicker, probably faster and has better defense. Manny has better power, is more versatile, agile and quicker.
PBF DOES have problems with southpaw's; and he also has problems with fighters that work the angles on him. Zab Judah, for instance; and Zab's work rate is not even close to Pac's.
I believe wholeheartedly that if it was MP that had rocked Floyd instead of SSM, his "0" would be no-mo. Shane didn't finish - and couldn't finish due to overtraining, IMO. Floyd prospers against 2 types of fighters, those that come at him straight-ahead, and those that wait on him, hoping to counter. Manny is neither of those...and yet, both to a certain extent. The difference is MP will walk you down, but hit you from angles; and has the speed and accuracy to wait and counter. The biggest factor in a potential fight between these two ATG's, is FMM's "one punch and turn" style. He cannot throw one punch and then try and spin or turn MP, hoping to catch him off of an angle. Manny had a 5 to 1 punch ratio over DLH, on average; it was much higher in some rounds. PBF's average output per round in his title fights is around 38 punches thrown - connecting at a 41% (approximately) clip. Where MP typically throws around 70 per round - landing at about a 43% rate. Manny doesn't work with much of a jab, and PBF has a clear advantage in that category. Power punches - PBF is usually around 24/round landing 47%, while Manny throws ~ 45 and lands 53%. The bottom line is this (IMHO), PBF was fortunate that when SSM took him to deep water - Shane locked up and couldn't finish. This will not happen against Manny Pacquiao. Manny will outwork Floyd - in every round; and will land more often - in every round. Floyd would be pushed in this fight like never before, and Manny is far too smart to get in the clinches and let FMM work his dirty boxing on the inside - slowing the pace in the process.
Everyone who has fought Floyd either tries to steamroll him, or outsmart him - and you can't do that. I won't deny that Floyd is a very smart fighter, but Manny is just better at his game than Floyd is at his. I believe that Floyd would KO the Manny Pacquiao of 6 or 7 years ago; but this current version of Manny would be too much for him. He has sharpened his skills and improved in all facets while defeating and/or dismantling some of the top fighters in the world, against HOF'ers and those that noone else wanted to risk a fight with - including FMJ. I hope that this fight can be made, and all the excuses will stop - it's too important to the sport for it not to.
I'll put my flame suit on - it's cool...but these are just honest opinions from someone who has a lifelong passion for this sport and enjoys having a forum to voice his thoughts/opinions.
-Ref
floyd has DOMINATED EVERY southpaw hes fought
I don't think his win over Zab Judah would exactly qualify as "domination". It was a UD, sure; but anyone who watched that fight really can't say it was as a dominating performance by FMJ.
-Ref
If you can't call those scores indications of Floyd's dominance over Zab, I don't know what you call dominance man. If you do a round by round comparison, you can only give Judah, AT BEST, the first four rounds. I did go beyond the scorecard and saw that Floyd adjusted after the third or fourth by switching from a Philly Shell to a regular high guard, which helped to deal with Zab's super quick jab and overall offensive attack
We'll just have to agree to disagree, my friend. :) I gave 5 rounds to Zab; but the argument for 4 is solid. I know the punch stats show a lop-sided fight, too. But those same stats prove him to have been beaten by JLC in their first meeting. So...grain of salt and open mind. ;)
-Ref
.Hamada: 119-109
.Moretti: 116-112
.Roth: 117-111
- DOMINATING PERFORMANCE
- I'm curious to see how you scored the fight?
I too, know the scores. ;) What I'm saying is that he didn't dominate Judah. He outpointed him - big difference. Go beyond the scorecard and look at the fight. He beat him, don't get me wrong; but I can't go so far as to call it dominating.
-Ref
The fact that Floyd hasn't lost isn't the question, I can certainly see that. But I also see who he either, hasn't fought, or even more telling (for me, anyway) who he HAS fought. The only negative I can give Manny is for not giving a 3rd fight to Marquez, but it doesn't tarnish his legacy the way FMJ's will be if he doesn't get in the ring with MP. As for CompuBox records, here's one for you; MP ranks #8 on the list of fighters in title fights that have landed more than 400 punches, with 474 vs. Margarito. Guess where FMJ ranks? He doesn't.
-Ref
He dominated him. There is a reason zab hit him with a low blow.
Judah hit him low because he was frustrated that the ref was letting FMJ work his elbows in the clinches, and put his forearm in his throat. A d*ck move, no doubt - but not because he was getting "dominated".
-Ref