Everything is subjective but take a look at Robinson's resume; he fought some of the greatest ww's and middleweights in history, moved all the way up to lhw, continued way past his prime vs hof'ers, etc. Nobody could beat him at his best, and he proved it in the ring.
Who were those greatest welterweights?
Good post. Being in memorable fights and being a spectacular finisher is always held in high regard. But what about when you dominate so much that you don't have a lot of memorable fights? Or if you aren't the biggest puncher, have suffered through injuries, fighting bigger fighters and have adapted your style to adjust to your age and physical condition?
It's all subjective.
True. Who's greater? A fighter like you mentioned, much like Floyd or fighters who show vulnerabiltiy and sometimes lose or gets dropped faces adversity and comes back and comes back stronger?
I think it is down sometimes to the boxer himself, if he talks a good fight and does not perform, what do you expect fans to say
"Never mind he tried"
Myself I want to see Violence at it rawest format, skills sometimes go out the window in a big fight but not seen it for the last 10 years as they are generally scared to lose a round let a lone a fight or worried about being countered:dead1:
Like the way John Molina went against AB?
for me Joe Louis is the GOAT.
He is the quintessential symbol of the ''All American Sport.''
While Hollywood and biased American media will have you think Baseball is what kept the American spirit alive pre and post WWI-WW2, Joe Louis went against the Third Reich. For me, during a time where black folk just had it bad (and before) and still today, represents the baddest man of this century. And it's through BOXING!!!!
Why doesn't Hollywood cover such great stories? Because they don't want you to believe that an African American BODY (Human) alone could fight the ''evil'' Third Reich aka Nazi's. And what's even MORE beautiful of the story is that Max Schmeling wasn't even on the Third Reich's side and showed compassion to the American public, but HAUSER won't write stuff like that because of HIS general insecurities to black folk. piece of shlt. I hate that mofo..
instead let's just make another hashed out Schindler's list and make Liam Neeson the symbol and give an Oscar to Denzel for Training Day - the depiction Hollywood and BET backers just love to fund..
yeah that's why I stand by sig. They just mad because Floyd wasn't hood.
Man a Joe Louis movie would be epic a ****! But who would play him?
Kid Gavilan twice, Henry Armstrong, Zivicx2.
In an era with only a single belt, take any modern day fighter and remove people from their resume that you consider a significant win because they had an alphabet title, thats what its like discounting guys the Robinson fought who were no. 1 contenders but could never win the title because Robinson was around.
You are comparing different eras and don't realise that the numbers 1, 2 and 3 contenders in his era that he beat would hold the 'WBO, IBF, WBC' whatever belts today.
Great point, thank you for pointing that out. Makes sense. Theres always something new to learn in this sport.
like a previous poster said, the proof is in the tape.
he was a murderous puncher with both hands, had speed and could step on the gas or counter you to death if he so chose. his wars with lamotta and his win over kid gavilan is better than anything that hagler or hopkins ever did. guys who we thought were monsters growing up as welters and super welters .... guys like trinidad, odlh, vargas, mosley, cotto, margarito, clottey, hearns, srl, duran (past prime and above weight) would get absolutely murked against the real sugar and i also feel that floyd would not see the end of a 15 round fight with him. he was a murderous ballerina. no one in the game today could see srr.
personally, i see him stopping hopkins and MD hagler.
I like the way you describe him. A murderous ballerina. Which is true or at least have true, he did kill somone, right?
It's an opinion. Consensus is always BS anyway. It's basically saying you have a group of people who all say the same thing and if you dispute that, well, you must be an idiot. It's elitist crap and they alienate themselves and eventually become the minority due to their terrible attitudes. For me, Roberto Duran is the pound-for-pound best of all time and I don't care what any one else thinks. It's my opinion and they have theirs, but by you questioning Robinson or saying that he's not your number one, you'll catch no flack from me.
When it comes down to it, Robinson was a lot of fun to watch, with excellent speed and power in both hands. He also stayed very busy and had a very high tally of wins. It's hard to knock the guy either way you look at it and I certainly believe he's one of the best in the sport's history.
However, he did fight plenty of soft touches as anyone with 200 fights did. it couldn't be helped. I think those fights kept him sharp and there's nothing wrong with that. I wish more modern fighters would do the same. He also fought the best of his era and beat most of them. But his style was like anybody else's. It had certain flaws.
Robinson was an outside fighter for the most part. His best work came from a distance. When Basilio, LaMotta and Fullmer crowded him, they had a lot of success in the losses and of course their victories over the sugar man. I think most good inside fighters would give him plenty of trouble and the great inside fighters would beat him more often than not. I'm not sold that Hopkins would beat him as I think he would be too busy and sharp for Hopkins. And a younger Hopkins would run into his shots more which would give him the advantage. Hagler would have a shot but only if he got to land like he wanted to. Personally, I think Robinson would be too quick and would frustrate Hagler way too much. You have to ask yourself 'If Sugar Ray Leonard could beat him, could not Sugar Ray Robinson?' I can't answer that question any other way than Robinson would win. Hagler was bigger and stronger, but he could be outboxed as he was against Leonard and in my opinion, Duran as well.
I'm not sure how Robinson-Monzon would play out. I think it would be a close, chess match that wouldn't be much fun with Monzon possibly edging him on points but it could really go either way. I do see Julian Jackson getting a knockdown over him. Mike McCallum might be too much for him as well, but I don't know. McCallum often got frustrated too. James Toney would lose I believe. Roy Jones would bring all kinds of athleticism in for a fun scrap, but Robinson threw a lot and had accuracy. If he managed to clip Roy, it could be all over. I think he's too much for Pavlik and Taylor. From what I've seen of GGG, I have to give the edge to Robinson due to opposition, but this is too early IMO. When GGG does get big fights, we will see.
Robinson will always be highly regarded and rightly so. But never be afraid to say he was not the best. And I don't believe Ali was the best heavyweight either. I definitely favor Joe Louis if they ever met. However, I think Joe Louis-Joe Frazier would be so much more fun.
One of the best reads in this entire thread. Thank you
Erm...Canelo?
Are you saying he will fall short? I was actually thinking about the smaller guys like smaller than welter. If so, How about Gilbert Ramirez?
When I think of adversity I think of Marquez getting dropped and/or rocked and coming back to win the fight
Even thought Floyd was probably behind against Maidana but I always felt homeboy was in control. Judah fight I feel showed more greatness. Even in the Mosley fight how he took that right hand away after eating it twice flush
Oh DO ONE you soppy ball bag cunt. Grow a pair or fcuk off.
Soppy ball bag cunt? was that an insult? :gay:
I guess, you're one of them *******s, huh?
Have a nice day, *******.:killyou:
What don't you like about his "boxing IQ"?
Never said I didn't like it, I guess I just expected more technical ability from someone who is rated as the the greatest of all time. He seemed like raw and vicious puncher with power in both hands with crazy combos and a wicked leaping left hook like sugar shane
All the top boxers are overrated. It's human nature to look for heros and put one man on the top. So what we do is gather evidence to justify putting a man in that top spot. The evidence is never conclusive because there are too many factors to calculate and arrive at a REAL conclusion.....The people who do conclude that someone is the greatest are just under an illusion. Any man can be beat at any time IF the fight the wrong opponent for them. No boxer has fought anywhere near enough opponents to come to to the conclusion that they are the greatest. We don't even truly know if the fighters back in the old days were better or worse than the fighters now. It's just conjecture no matter what we believe.
The other problem is that people become overrated based on their level of fame. This is a major source of brain washing the public into overrating a fighter or any other person in any field (music, sports, science, psychology, art, beauty). Mohammed Ali, Elvis, The Beatles are all WAY overrated. They're overrated because they have a story built around their fame. They were the first to be hyped in a particular way. They had interesting stories. The overrated people had better branding because they came along at the right time, in the right era, with the right handlers around them, and the right circumstances to breed the kind of success and extraordinary fortune. People are suckers and believe the hype. Robinson was a great fighter just as Ali was but there were other guys that have been just as good and haven't benefited from the circumstances that they happened upon at the right place or time.
Nice way to put in perspective, thanks for your feed back
It all depends. Overcoming adversity is important to long term success and Floyd has done that (injuries, being down on the cards against Maidana and Judah, etc.). Whitaker had to come back from behind and knockout Hurtado even though he wasn't known as a great finisher.
When I think of adversity I think of Marquez getting dropped and/or rocked and coming back to win the fight
I've heard someone refer to Shane Mosley as "Shame Mostly", I thought that SHlT was hilarious.
A few favorites include "A mere Con", Keith "Sometimes" Thurman, Lamont PEDerson and Billy Hoe Saunders is flat out hilarious.
How about Roberta "El Manos De Mierda" Duran?
Any new ones y'all care to share?
Yeah Sammy Vazquez comes to box. He's another Canelo type Mexican. Mexicans come in all sorts styles in it. In Mexico Veracruz most Mexicans are black. Would be dope as hell to see a rising black Mexican fighter. Mexicans cool doe.
Would anyone consider a legend like Jose Napoles a mexican or a cuban?
Maybe not that high. But many Asians lack the enzyme needed to break alcohol down. You see them get red faced after one beer. But there are people globally who can't break down alcohol.
Damn, no wonder my girl got **** faced off of one wine cooler and was sitting in the floor of a dark restroom by herself. LMAO
Sure, but not before Crawford vs Pacquiao & its arguable for Canelo/Oscar it might not be worth it for Canelo post a Crawford L (assuming Manny doesn't win). Think Arum would wanna give his own guy the beat Manny bump before he'd wanna give a non-house guy that potential bump.
True, makes a whole lot of sense
Pacquiao will never fight over 150 lbs its just not happening. bradley is way more realistic but he has to beat Pacquiao first.
Even for a monster pay day?
I'm living in Dubai for the year so I've only been able to get one friend to watch it with me. Good thing is that everything delivers here so I'll have the beers and wings ready at 4am lol..
Haha...watching a fight at 4 am. That sounds too dope. No marijuana tho"?
Where you from in L.A.?
But yeah my night will pretty much mirror yours. I'm going to the homie's house and they're all Mexican so naturally they're Canelo fans. I've got big money on Canelo so I'll be rooting for him too. :lol1:
Yup, Los Angeles. Close to South Central.
I'm in Dubai broski... Lord knows I miss the tree but i'll be damned if i'm takin that risk out here with these radical laws.
haha...I bet. WHere you from originally and why're you in Dubai? You only have one friend to watch it with you? No Boxing fans in Dubai?
I LOVE homos (men) because homos love eachother, allowing me to love more women all at once, but its them ****in' lesbians I have issues with. They need to quit playing and give me this Pus$y. :joke: