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He was good in his era but if he fought in today's era, he would lose to Fury, Wilder, Joshua, Usyk, Miller, and Ortiz
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prob not in top 10 but in top 15 of heavyweights, so i say ATGComment
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Consider this also, he fought in reality with one eye thru a lot of his career, beat Ali in his PRIME. That is enough for ATG status.Comment
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Foreman isn't an ATG either. Haha. How can you be with 3 wins against Norton, Frazier and Moorer? If that's the case, there are hundreds of ATG's out there.Frazier did lose to Ali and Foreman. This is true. Ali and Foreman are both ATGs.
Lewis lost to McCall and Rahman. McCall and Rahman were good heavyweights at best. Not even close to ATGs. And Lennox wasn't old when he lost to them either.
Joe didn't just beat Ali either. He was the first to beat him. You think Ali's win over Foreman was great? I do. Why? Because he beat Foreman when he was this indestructible force. All hindisight is 20/20 but human nature doesn't change. Going in, most thought Foreman would destroy him like he'd destroyed everybody else, including Frazier. And Frazier beat Quarry twice. You said that was a good win. That's two good wins, along with the Ali official win since I guess he was just swatted around in the third fight. A loss is a loss. Doesn't matter how close the fight was. Come on, man. If you believe that bullshlt there's no point in taking anything you say seriously. When two guys go life and death, you have to respect the opponent who lost unless you have an agenda.
Now you go ahead.
Lewis got up from the McCall knock down but wasn't allowed to continue. Holmes was also as hurt when dropped by Shavers. Was he knocked out as well? As for the Rahman KO. You do know that Lewis didn't train properly and turned up late so didn't get used to the altitude? You could see it in the first round when he was gasping for breath with his mouth wide open. He was lethargic in there. When the KO came, Lewis was hit on the side of his face with his mouth open. Anyone under the same conditions would also be knocked out.
Good fighters have been able to knock out great fighters before is my point, but still go on to be genuine ATG's. But you seem fixed on this Lewis ****. Do you spend the same amount of time on Joe Louis getting outclassed, beaten up, dropped, and then knocked out against a shot Max Schmelling? That was much worse because Louis didn't turn up fat nor fight at altitude. Schmelling lost 4 of his last 5 fights, and 3 were by knock out when he fought Louis the first time. At least McCall and Rahman were prime.
Ali and his team loosened the ropes so Ali could lean back and avoid Foreman's punches when they fought, which is cheating. So no, I don't consider that a great win. In any other sport you'd be banned for years for messing with professional equipment the way they did. But what the hell has this got to do with Frazier? Stick to the topic, please.
Who cares if Frazier was the first to beat Ali. Jones was the first to beat Barrera. And? Shcmelling was the first to beat Louis. And?
Most thought Lacy was going to ruin Calzaghe before going into that fight. But they call him a bum now. So who cares what the predictions were before Ali/Foreman.
Quarry was finished by the time they fought the second time.
Hagler went life and death with Mugabi. Is Mugabi an ATG as well? Haha.
Morales went life and death with Chi. Is he an ATG?
Lewis went life and death with Mercer. Is he an ATG?
Foreman went life and death with Lyle. Is he an ATG?
Get the picture now? Or do you need me to give you more examples of lesser fighters giving better fighters tough fights?
I don't have an agenda. I just have a brain in my head and know about boxing. Never have I been, or ever will be, so ****** were I think or let anybody else make me think, that Joe Frazier is an ATG. Ever. He never was, nor will he ever be such. Sorry.Comment
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Between Lewis' loss to Rahman and Louis' loss to Schmeling, I noticed one fundamental difference. One made excuses for his loss and the other didn't. Louis took his L like a man while Lewis made excuses which shows the differences between different eras.
George Foreman won the gold medal in '68 and blew through a long string of opponents on his way to the title and was very feared as he should have been when Ali fought him. I've heard the rope-loosening thing before and it could be true but by your earlier statement, you said only wins and losses matter. So Ali beat Foreman and any kind of cheating doesn't matter. Just like with Lewis and McCall and Rahman. The result is all that matters. Right? And come on. Lewis was on ***** street when they stopped it. Again, take the L like a man.
And that's another good point with Jones. You consider barrera an ATG as do I. And yes, he lost to Junior Jones, who clearly wasn't. However, Jones had a killer right hand and was a champion in two weight classes and had many accomplishments. He just didn't do enough. But yes, he did starch a young Barrera while Morales stopped Jones in four rounds and McKinney got dropped but then stopped Jones as well and McKinney wasn't in his prime when he did it either. So yes, great fighters can lose and come back and they don't always make excuses. You talk about Louis losing to Schmeling. Well, a loss to Schmeling is definitely no worse than a loss to Junior Jones and where were Barrera's excuses? I didn't hear any. His trainers did jump in the ring and save him though. I did see that. Do I hold it against him, though? No, of course not. Barrera had many great accomplishments after this.
Honestly, I didn't think Morales went "life and death" with Chi. The Korean gave him a good fight, but Morales clearly won imo. It was a struggle but not life and death imo. So you consider Morales an ATG then? Because you know, like Frazier, he lost two out of three against Barrera and some would even say three out of three. I mean, it's really more about who you beat though. Only wins count doe. Right?
Foreman did go life and death with Lyle. Was Lyle an ATG? No, I don't think so but he was one hell of a puncher and a very tough heavyweight at the time. Put any heavyweight in history in with Lyle. You think it would be easy? Hell, man, that's one of the scariest dudes ever and Foreman did go life and death with him, but he also won and we know you're all about the "W" being the only thing that matters. And Foreman also came back and regained the title at 45. No heavy has done that since and it doesn't look like it will happen anytime soon.
You're a knowledgable guy but your logic is flawed. For some reason, Joe rubs you the wrong way which is fine. You don't have to like everybody but look at this poll even, man. Damn near everyone on here thinks Joe is an ATG besides you. What does that tell you? You think the rest of us don't know boxing or who the ATGs are? Frazier even by beating a prime ATG in Ali is enough for him to be considered so. It's like Duran with a prime Leonard and Leonard with a prime Hearns and LaMotta with a prime Robinson and so on and so on...Comment
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You're out of your mind. Marvis was shít.
Joe Frazier was a B- Level fighter. He never beat anybody that ain't already been beat a bunch. When he got with the big dogs he got tore up. 32-4-1 in a time when most HW's were well over 50 fights. So what he beat Ali, Raging Bull got Robinson once upon a time too.
He wouldn't have survived in the 90's for long. He's kind of a Bert Cooper caliber fighter.Last edited by McNulty; 11-22-2018, 12:28 AM.Comment
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I don't know, Frazier got spanked by the best.Comment
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