Is Joe Frazier an ATG?

[juggernaut666]

The ATG badge is the most funny things in boxing..it gives a fan illusions that it's a skill and they don't need to provide solid facts or points to back up anything why they think that ATG could beat fighter A , B, or C.

ATG isn't a skill.it's a selective point of view . The view should be what the fighter did in their era and / or even what they brought to boxing inside and outside the ring.

Frazier did enough in his era which basically revolved around Ali , the trilogy itself impacted boxing , personally I had Frazier winning the first 2 fights, he had a great left hook, didn't lose in the 60's either, wasn't really prime anymore against Foreman ..etc.

Frazier is an ATG just like a few should be in this one when it passes, but that won't be the case because boxing fans are to dumbed down to and compare fictitious levels of unbeatable guys in their head to modern ones...it's what they DO!

Frazier is an.ATG!

He still.loses to Jarrell Miller !

[Tony Trick-Pony]

The ATG badge is the most funny things in boxing..it gives a fan illusions that it's a skill and they don't need to provide solid facts or points to back up anything why they think that ATG could beat fighter A , B, or C.

ATG isn't a skill.it's a selective point of view . The view should be what the fighter did in their era and / or even what they brought to boxing inside and outside the ring.

Frazier did enough in his era which basically revolved around Ali , the trilogy itself impacted boxing , personally I had Frazier winning the first 2 fights, he had a great left hook, didn't lose in the 60's either, wasn't really prime anymore against Foreman ..etc.

Frazier is an ATG just like a few should be in this one when it passes, but that won't be the case because boxing fans are to dumbed down to and compare fictitious levels of unbeatable guys in their head to modern ones...it's what they DO!

Frazier is an.ATG!

He still.loses to Jarrell Miller !

Good post, sir.

Can't agree on Miller though, but as with all MM's, we're never gonna know for sure.

[GhostofDempsey]

Yes he is. One has to consider the era he fought in, and his impact on the sport as a whole. Tremendous heart and will.

[Sid-Knee]

Between Lewis' loss to Rahman and Louis' loss to Schmeling, I noticed one fundamental difference. One made excuses for his loss and the other didn't. Louis took his L like a man while Lewis made excuses which shows the differences between different eras.

George Foreman won the gold medal in '68 and blew through a long string of opponents on his way to the title and was very feared as he should have been when Ali fought him. I've heard the rope-loosening thing before and it could be true but by your earlier statement, you said only wins and losses matter. So Ali beat Foreman and any kind of cheating doesn't matter. Just like with Lewis and McCall and Rahman. The result is all that matters. Right? And come on. Lewis was on ***** street when they stopped it. Again, take the L like a man.

And that's another good point with Jones. You consider barrera an ATG as do I. And yes, he lost to Junior Jones, who clearly wasn't. However, Jones had a killer right hand and was a champion in two weight classes and had many accomplishments. He just didn't do enough. But yes, he did starch a young Barrera while Morales stopped Jones in four rounds and McKinney got dropped but then stopped Jones as well and McKinney wasn't in his prime when he did it either. So yes, great fighters can lose and come back and they don't always make excuses. You talk about Louis losing to Schmeling. Well, a loss to Schmeling is definitely no worse than a loss to Junior Jones and where were Barrera's excuses? I didn't hear any. His trainers did jump in the ring and save him though. I did see that. Do I hold it against him, though? No, of course not. Barrera had many great accomplishments after this.

Honestly, I didn't think Morales went "life and death" with Chi. The Korean gave him a good fight, but Morales clearly won imo. It was a struggle but not life and death imo. So you consider Morales an ATG then? Because you know, like Frazier, he lost two out of three against Barrera and some would even say three out of three. I mean, it's really more about who you beat though. Only wins count doe. Right?

Foreman did go life and death with Lyle. Was Lyle an ATG? No, I don't think so but he was one hell of a puncher and a very tough heavyweight at the time. Put any heavyweight in history in with Lyle. You think it would be easy? Hell, man, that's one of the scariest dudes ever and Foreman did go life and death with him, but he also won and we know you're all about the "W" being the only thing that matters. And Foreman also came back and regained the title at 45. No heavy has done that since and it doesn't look like it will happen anytime soon.

You're a knowledgable guy but your logic is flawed. For some reason, Joe rubs you the wrong way which is fine. You don't have to like everybody but look at this poll even, man. Damn near everyone on here thinks Joe is an ATG besides you. What does that tell you? You think the rest of us don't know boxing or who the ATGs are? Frazier even by beating a prime ATG in Ali is enough for him to be considered so. It's like Duran with a prime Leonard and Leonard with a prime Hearns and LaMotta with a prime Robinson and so on and so on...

How can you make excuses when you're dominated in every area against a shot fighter when you're in your prime? Lewis WAS overweight and turned up late so didn't get used to the altitude. They are not excuses, just facts. Even everybody at HBO knew Lewis messed up in the first Rahman fight. Besides, Lewis didn't actually make excuses, he said he prepared well and that one punch can change a fight. It was everybody else who pointed it out that he wasn't. So you're wrong again.

They loosened the ropes, it doesn't count. Everybody out there in Zaire wanted Ali to win and Foreman to lose. They just gave him a helping hand. A loss matters if everything runs smoothly and no cheating is at play. Foreman was cheated, and Lewis had the worst camp imaginable. Throw in the fact he turned up late to Africa, then you know things didn't go smoothly.

Jones did have a killer right hand. As did Rahman and McCall. But that's not my point. My point is great fighters can be beaten by just good fighters whether by stoppage or points. It's you who's trying to paint Lewis in a bad light. Lewis is god compared to the peasant that was Joe Frazier. It's insulting.

A loss to a shot fighter in Schmelling is no worse than a loss to a prime fighter in Jones? Really??? Are you sure? Please stop this nonsense. It's getting very boring.

Do I consider Morales a great fighter? Erm, yes, very much so. Him losing 2 out of 3 against Barrera doesn't change that fact when you consider losing to another ATG isn't actually something to frown upon. He still does have a win over Barrera and Pac as well as a strong list of good fighters.

Lyle was a journeyman. Come on, man. The good and the great would tear the slow caveman to shreds. Pretending that everyone from that era, regardless of whether they were **** or not, was some kind of great is the most hilarious talk a knowledgeable fight fan can hear. It was the most overrated era in boxing history out of any weight class you care to mention. That division was top heavy with some good fighters and the rest being nothing but jokes. But because you've read some idiot talk about that time like it was the very best ever, you've decided to follow suit through brainwashing and repeat their utter garbage. It's laughable.

Foreman had the perfect setup when he fought Moorer. Moorer was a guy who was slow and had terrible stamina. but more importantly, he had a weak mind and a glass chin. Not forgetting that he was a blown-up Lightheavy. Moorer was always going to be on top for most of the fight until his energy was completely sapped and he stood right in front of Foreman long enough for the slow and lumbering Foreman to actually catch him. This after getting dominated isn't really the great achievement you think it is. It was a good win, but nothing more. Foreman's age doesn't even come into it. It's nothing but a statistic when discussing the age of Foreman at the time. It doesn't all of a sudden become a great win because he's 45 years of age.

Joe rubs me the wrong way because I don't call him an ATG? What are you on about? I'm a fan of Frazier. Just because I see him for what he is doesn't mean I don't like or respect him.

What does it tell me that most put yes to the question of "Is Joe Frazier an ATG?" It tells me boxing fans are the most moronic of all sporting fans. That's what it tells me. Deep down inside you know i'm right. And I most certainly know i'm right. It's beyond crazy to call him an ATG when he's nowhere near to being.

Beating Ali doesn't make you an ATG. I've already explained this to you and you agree with me. A good fighter beating a better one doesn't all of a sudden make you great. But you're now contradicting yourself. So well done.

[Sid-Knee]

Some ****** points made from Sid-knee overall. Dismissing the Foster win is ludicrous, he was an ATG at 175, and in his prime. Frazier destroyed him with ease in 2 rounds which is what you are supposed to do with a smaller great fighter if you are an ATG yourself, their discrepancy in weight was 20lbs on the night.

He was THE MAN at heavyweight for nearly 3 years in one of the more competitive eras in the history of the division. He beat Ali in that reign in one of the best pressure fighting performances ive seen in a boxing ring, he oozed class that night. I like the way people always like to bring up the 3 1/2 years out too and make it like Ali went straight in with Frazier without a camp, it was his third fight back. And all 3 Ali-Frazier fights were super competitive.

He has some other solid wins which have already been argued so not gonna go into it, but at the end of the day much of his legacy is built on his battles, win, and competitiveness with prob the greatest heavyweight ever. The other wins, the reign, the knockouts, gold medal, supplement a great career. You can take apart anyone's resume with biased slants and propaganda

You say I made some ****** points in dismissing the Foster win when he was a Lightheavy with no wins of merit at the weight and outweighed by a large margin against Frazier?

Those who don't understand irony are the most ******. Aren't they?

[Tony Trick-Pony]

How can you make excuses when you're dominated in every area against a shot fighter when you're in your prime? Lewis WAS overweight and turned up late so didn't get used to the altitude. They are not excuses, just facts. Even everybody at HBO knew Lewis messed up in the first Rahman fight. Besides, Lewis didn't actually make excuses, he said he prepared well and that one punch can change a fight. It was everybody else who pointed it out that he wasn't. So you're wrong again.

They loosened the ropes, it doesn't count. Everybody out there in Zaire wanted Ali to win and Foreman to lose. They just gave him a helping hand. A loss matters if everything runs smoothly and no cheating is at play. Foreman was cheated, and Lewis had the worst camp imaginable. Throw in the fact he turned up late to Africa, then you know things didn't go smoothly.

Jones did have a killer right hand. As did Rahman and McCall. But that's not my point. My point is great fighters can be beaten by just good fighters whether by stoppage or points. It's you who's trying to paint Lewis in a bad light. Lewis is god compared to the peasant that was Joe Frazier. It's insulting.

A loss to a shot fighter in Schmelling is no worse than a loss to a prime fighter in Jones? Really??? Are you sure? Please stop this nonsense. It's getting very boring.

Do I consider Morales a great fighter? Erm, yes, very much so. Him losing 2 out of 3 against Barrera doesn't change that fact when you consider losing to another ATG isn't actually something to frown upon. He still does have a win over Barrera and Pac as well as a strong list of good fighters.

Lyle was a journeyman. Come on, man. The good and the great would tear the slow caveman to shreds. Pretending that everyone from that era, regardless of whether they were **** or not, was some kind of great is the most hilarious talk a knowledgeable fight fan can hear. It was the most overrated era in boxing history out of any weight class you care to mention. That division was top heavy with some good fighters and the rest being nothing but jokes. But because you've read some idiot talk about that time like it was the very best ever, you've decided to follow suit through brainwashing and repeat their utter garbage. It's laughable.

Foreman had the perfect setup when he fought Moorer. Moorer was a guy who was slow and had terrible stamina. but more importantly, he had a weak mind and a glass chin. Not forgetting that he was a blown-up Lightheavy. Moorer was always going to be on top for most of the fight until his energy was completely sapped and he stood right in front of Foreman long enough for the slow and lumbering Foreman to actually catch him. This after getting dominated isn't really the great achievement you think it is. It was a good win, but nothing more. Foreman's age doesn't even come into it. It's nothing but a statistic when discussing the age of Foreman at the time. It doesn't all of a sudden become a great win because he's 45 years of age.

Joe rubs me the wrong way because I don't call him an ATG? What are you on about? I'm a fan of Frazier. Just because I see him for what he is doesn't mean I don't like or respect him.

What does it tell me that most put yes to the question of "Is Joe Frazier an ATG?" It tells me boxing fans are the most moronic of all sporting fans. That's what it tells me. Deep down inside you know i'm right. And I most certainly know i'm right. It's beyond crazy to call him an ATG when he's nowhere near to being.

Beating Ali doesn't make you an ATG. I've already explained this to you and you agree with me. A good fighter beating a better one doesn't all of a sudden make you great. But you're now contradicting yourself. So well done.

Okay, buddy. Here we go again.

Maybe Lewis didn't make excuses for himself and in that regard, props to him. The rest of you should stop making excuses for him, too. He lost. Get over it. No fighter comes into a ring under perfect circumstances. And hell, if he's that bad off, why even have the fight? Loma tore his labrum in the second round against Linares but there were no excuses afterwards. He made the win happen anyway. And who knows for sure the exact condition of any fighter in any match? Shlt happens but Lewis still got knocked out by Rahman. In comparions, Frazier lost to two ATGs and nothing else. Oh, I know. You don't consider Foreman an ATG either. I guess the only ATG in the seventies heavyweight era was Ali. Everybody else doesn't quite come up to par. Well, what makes Ali a great then? It's not like he beat any great fighters because if Foreman and Frazier don't make the cut, how can an old Patterson or Sonny LIston make the ATG cut? It's not possible with you and your ultra-high standards. So there's that.

So great fighters can lose to just good fighters? How about Fraizer, who only lost to fellow great fighters? Bonavena gave him a hard fight but did he win? Quarry gave him a tough fight, but did he win?

And you sit here and say that a great fighter can lose to a good one but somehow Joe Louis' loss to max Schmeling is unforgivable? A guy can lose to Rahman and McCall and still be an ATG, but not Schmeling? Oh heaven forbid that! Haha.

You make a point with Morales in this odd logic. He did beat two ATGs in Barrera and Morales and Frazier beat just one in Ali. I'll give you that one.

Ron Lyle was a journeyman. Um, yeah and? You ever heard of Emanuel Augustus? Ever see his fight with Mayweather? he tore Floyd up in some of those rounds and bloodied his nose and he was damn sure a journeyman. Just because journeyman come up short most of the time, does not mean they are not dangerous. Several are. And he gave Foreman one hell of a fight? What of it? Hell, Foreman still won in one of the most entertaining rock 'em sock 'em heavyweight fights of all time.

And with Moorer, perfect set-up my ass. When you are 45, there is no damn perfect set-up. Hell, no 45-year-old has the reflexes of a 30-year-old like Moorer. Moorer could have easily moved more and won but he foolishly went after George. Everyone expected Moorer to win that fight. It was a huge upset and like I say, who's done it before or since? Wlad nearly pulled it off at 41 but even he didn't.

And you want to call boxing fans the most moronic of all while posting as a boxing fan on a boxing forum? Haha. Well, maybe you should find a new sport to follow where you don't have to engage with us morons, buddy boy.

What else you got?

[Sid-Knee]

Okay, buddy. Here we go again.

Maybe Lewis didn't make excuses for himself and in that regard, props to him. The rest of you should stop making excuses for him, too. He lost. Get over it. No fighter comes into a ring under perfect circumstances. And hell, if he's that bad off, why even have the fight? Loma tore his labrum in the second round against Linares but there were no excuses afterwards. He made the win happen anyway. And who knows for sure the exact condition of any fighter in any match? Shlt happens but Lewis still got knocked out by Rahman. In comparions, Frazier lost to two ATGs and nothing else. Oh, I know. You don't consider Foreman an ATG either. I guess the only ATG in the seventies heavyweight era was Ali. Everybody else doesn't quite come up to par. Well, what makes Ali a great then? It's not like he beat any great fighters because if Foreman and Frazier don't make the cut, how can an old Patterson or Sonny LIston make the ATG cut? It's not possible with you and your ultra-high standards. So there's that.

So great fighters can lose to just good fighters? How about Fraizer, who only lost to fellow great fighters? Bonavena gave him a hard fight but did he win? Quarry gave him a tough fight, but did he win?

And you sit here and say that a great fighter can lose to a good one but somehow Joe Louis' loss to max Schmeling is unforgivable? A guy can lose to Rahman and McCall and still be an ATG, but not Schmeling? Oh heaven forbid that! Haha.

You make a point with Morales in this odd logic. He did beat two ATGs in Barrera and Morales and Frazier beat just one in Ali. I'll give you that one.

Ron Lyle was a journeyman. Um, yeah and? You ever heard of Emanuel Augustus? Ever see his fight with Mayweather? he tore Floyd up in some of those rounds and bloodied his nose and he was damn sure a journeyman. Just because journeyman come up short most of the time, does not mean they are not dangerous. Several are. And he gave Foreman one hell of a fight? What of it? Hell, Foreman still won in one of the most entertaining rock 'em sock 'em heavyweight fights of all time.

And with Moorer, perfect set-up my ass. When you are 45, there is no damn perfect set-up. Hell, no 45-year-old has the reflexes of a 30-year-old like Moorer. Moorer could have easily moved more and won but he foolishly went after George. Everyone expected Moorer to win that fight. It was a huge upset and like I say, who's done it before or since? Wlad nearly pulled it off at 41 but even he didn't.

And you want to call boxing fans the most moronic of all while posting as a boxing fan on a boxing forum? Haha. Well, maybe you should find a new sport to follow where you don't have to engage with us morons, buddy boy.

What else you got?

No fighter comes in under perfect circumstances? What fighters were making movies instead of training like Lewis was? Which fighters came in at their heaviest weight the way Lewis did? And which fighter had to contend with the altitude by turning up late the way Lewis did? Fighters don't have all this to contend with.

Lewis went through with the fight because he was being arrogant at the time and thought he could turn up in any shape he wanted and still win.

Frazier didn't lose to a great fighter in Foreman. Foreman was just good, nothing more. By the time the second Ali fight came along for him he was past his best.

Losing to a prime fighter in Rahman whilst being fat, undertrained, and fighting at altitude is forgivable. Especially when Lewis was clearly winning the fight at the point of stoppage. Louis being in his prime and losing to a shot fighter in Shmelling is nowhere near to being the same. Especially when you factor in that Louis was outclassed, losing the fight clearly, getting dropped, and then getting knocked out. A big difference. And I only used this as an example when you said Frazier wouldn't lose to a McCall or a Rahman the way Lewis did. You were trying to make out Frazier was better than Lewis. I was putting it to you that you probably have Louis over him as well but would never judge him the same way even though he lost in much worse circumstances. Therefore I was basically exposing your hypocrisy.

Do you have Frazier over Lewis on the ATG list? Do you have Louis over him on the ATG list? Do you have Louis over Frazier on the ATG list?

[Tony Trick-Pony]

No fighter comes in under perfect circumstances? What fighters were making movies instead of training like Lewis was? Which fighters came in at their heaviest weight the way Lewis did? And which fighter had to contend with the altitude by turning up late the way Lewis did? Fighters don't have all this to contend with.

Lewis went through with the fight because he was being arrogant at the time and thought he could turn up in any shape he wanted and still win.

Frazier didn't lose to a great fighter in Foreman. Foreman was just good, nothing more. By the time the second Ali fight came along for him he was past his best.

Losing to a prime fighter in Rahman whilst being fat, undertrained, and fighting at altitude is forgivable. Especially when Lewis was clearly winning the fight at the point of stoppage. Louis being in his prime and losing to a shot fighter in Shmelling is nowhere near to being the same. Especially when you factor in that Louis was outclassed, losing the fight clearly, getting dropped, and then getting knocked out. A big difference. And I only used this as an example when you said Frazier wouldn't lose to a McCall or a Rahman the way Lewis did. You were trying to make out Frazier was better than Lewis. I was putting it to you that you probably have Louis over him as well but would never judge him the same way even though he lost in much worse circumstances. Therefore I was basically exposing your hypocrisy.

Do you have Frazier over Lewis on the ATG list? Do you have Louis over him on the ATG list? Do you have Louis over Frazier on the ATG list?

So Lewis came in because he was being arrogant? Well, I can see that. He came across that way in his commentating at times but well, even if he was, whose fault was that? Either way, I don't want to hear anymore excuses for him. He got knocked out by Rahman who is damn sure no ATG and a very ordinary fighter overall. Lewis got in the rematch which is fine and redeeming, but did he still get blasted out? Yes, he did. And do I hold Schmeling in higher regard thatn Rahman. Hard to say, but I think that's pretty close either way you cut it. And you have to give Louis the edge chin-wise. Shmeling hit him over and over and over to get that KO. And what happened in Louis' rematch with Schmeling? He destroyed him inside of a round. So I don't see how you can give Lewis the edge in this one but I think it's close either way and so agree to disagree.

Would I put Frazier over Lewis? I don't know. Lewis did accomplish more for sure as far as number of opponents. Were his opponents that much better? Don't know about that but maybe. He did face Vitali along with Tyson and Holyfield. Those are all respectable for sure. Of course, he didn't get the best version of Tyson but I'm not getting picky. So a win over Iron Mike is a big deal and so is one over Holyfield. In fact, I'd say he got a win over prime Vitali. To me, that is very impressive. So no. I'd rank Lewis over Frazier, sherely by accomplishment. Would he beat Frazier? Man, I honestly don't think he would. If Ali had that much trouble with him, I see Frazier putting Lewis down at some point and down hard from repeated blows-not one shot like Rahman and Lewis.

I have Joe Louis over both. He made more defenses than any fighter in history. That has to be considered and he beat several other great heavyweights as well. And yes, I honestly see him beating Lewis but I don't know about Frazier. The battle of the Joes would be one hell of a scrap and I don't know who comes out on top.

[desertlizard]

thats like sayin brand0 was medi0cre,,, cm0n

[TonyGe]

Foreman isn't an ATG either. Haha. How can you be with 3 wins against Norton, Frazier and Moorer? If that's the case, there are hundreds of ATG's out there.

Lewis got up from the McCall knock down but wasn't allowed to continue. Holmes was also as hurt when dropped by Shavers. Was he knocked out as well? As for the Rahman KO. You do know that Lewis didn't train properly and turned up late so didn't get used to the altitude? You could see it in the first round when he was gasping for breath with his mouth wide open. He was lethargic in there. When the KO came, Lewis was hit on the side of his face with his mouth open. Anyone under the same conditions would also be knocked out.

Good fighters have been able to knock out great fighters before is my point, but still go on to be genuine ATG's. But you seem fixed on this Lewis ****. Do you spend the same amount of time on Joe Louis getting outclassed, beaten up, dropped, and then knocked out against a shot Max Schmelling? That was much worse because Louis didn't turn up fat nor fight at altitude. Schmelling lost 4 of his last 5 fights, and 3 were by knock out when he fought Louis the first time. At least McCall and Rahman were prime.

Ali and his team loosened the ropes so Ali could lean back and avoid Foreman's punches when they fought, which is cheating. So no, I don't consider that a great win. In any other sport you'd be banned for years for messing with professional equipment the way they did. But what the hell has this got to do with Frazier? Stick to the topic, please.

Who cares if Frazier was the first to beat Ali. Jones was the first to beat Barrera. And? Shcmelling was the first to beat Louis. And?

Most thought Lacy was going to ruin Calzaghe before going into that fight. But they call him a bum now. So who cares what the predictions were before Ali/Foreman.

Quarry was finished by the time they fought the second time.

Hagler went life and death with Mugabi. Is Mugabi an ATG as well? Haha.

Morales went life and death with Chi. Is he an ATG?

Lewis went life and death with Mercer. Is he an ATG?

Foreman went life and death with Lyle. Is he an ATG?

Get the picture now? Or do you need me to give you more examples of lesser fighters giving better fighters tough fights?

I don't have an agenda. I just have a brain in my head and know about boxing. Never have I been, or ever will be, so ****** were I think or let anybody else make me think, that Joe Frazier is an ATG. Ever. He never was, nor will he ever be such. Sorry.

Ali generally considered the best heavyweight ever had three titanic struggles against Frazier. Ali had to use up all of his skill and will in order to just survive. Yeah Joe is an ATG.