Is Joe Frazier an ATG?

[Tony Trick-Pony]

Ali generally considered the best heavyweight ever had three titanic struggles against Frazier. Ali had to use up all of his skill and will in order to just survive. Yeah Joe is an ATG.

Very well said, sir.

[REDEEMER]

Most top fighters then were ATG's then , it is a bit biased that modern eras degrade the fighters though which is why boxing struggles to get credibility to current fighters. Frazier has to be a ATG he was a top fighter and has a rich history of the transition period of the rise of the 70's kind of like our modern internet era. I think fans confuse giving status to making it a who can beat who which doesn't take away from the fighters achievements.

[johnbook]

Yes.
You only need to hear the oft-forgotten words of Ali at the presser after the Manilla fight about Frazier: "He's great, he's the greatest of all times after me."

[Tony Trick-Pony]

Most top fighters then were ATG's then , it is a bit biased that modern eras degrade the fighters though which is why boxing struggles to get credibility to current fighters. Frazier has to be a ATG he was a top fighter and has a rich history of the transition period of the rise of the 70's kind of like our modern internet era. I think fans confuse giving status to making it a who can beat who which doesn't take away from the fighters achievements.

Very true statement there, man. I think Vitali would handle Wladimir in a fight but Vitali did not accomplish nearly as much in his career as did his brother. Several cases like this.

[johnbook]

Too bad Lewis was ending his career. If Wlad tried to get revenge, likely 1st rd KO.
Maybe would have led to Lewis being ranked way at top of HW list for KOing both bros. Some still have him there anyway.

[REDEEMER]

Very true statement there, man. I think Vitali would handle Wladimir in a fight but Vitali did not accomplish nearly as much in his career as did his brother. Several cases like this.

Admittedly im probably the few percentage who thinks some modern guys defeats guys in the 70's which is considered the best Heavyweight era, but I think labeling eras like that is no different then fighters themselves, kind of like Lewis vs Frazier ,where I wouldn't see Frazier winning that one. Both are ATG's anyway it doesn't change what they and who they were.

[johnbook]

Admittedly im probably the few percentage who thinks some modern guys defeats guys in the 70's which is considered the best Heavyweight era, but I think labeling eras like that is no different then fighters themselves, kind of like Lewis vs Frazier ,where I wouldn't see Frazier winning that one. Both are ATG's anyway it doesn't change what they and who they were.

I don't know considering that Lewis was KOed by Rahman and McCall. Frazier was better and busier than them. If Frazier did that leaping left hook, like in Ali I, would Lewis have gotten up and been able to continue? I doubt it.

[strykr619]

Very true statement there, man. I think Vitali would handle Wladimir in a fight but Vitali did not accomplish nearly as much in his career as did his brother. Several cases like this.

Vitali is a unique case, was an accomplish Kickboxer before we went pro in boxing, Wlad was exclusively a boxer. Vitali also was pretty worn physically compared to younger bro.

But if they ever went heads up.

Vitali would ether younger bro.

[Tony Trick-Pony]

Vitali is a unique case, was an accomplish Kickboxer before we went pro in boxing, Wlad was exclusively a boxer. Vitali also was pretty worn physically compared to younger bro.

But if they ever went heads up.

Vitali would either younger bro.

Yeah, I agree, man. If Vitali hadn't already piled up injuries and been brittle, he would have gone farther. Still, he did pretty damn well in my opinion.

[Sid-Knee]

So Lewis came in because he was being arrogant? Well, I can see that. He came across that way in his commentating at times but well, even if he was, whose fault was that? Either way, I don't want to hear anymore excuses for him. He got knocked out by Rahman who is damn sure no ATG and a very ordinary fighter overall. Lewis got in the rematch which is fine and redeeming, but did he still get blasted out? Yes, he did. And do I hold Schmeling in higher regard thatn Rahman. Hard to say, but I think that's pretty close either way you cut it. And you have to give Louis the edge chin-wise. Shmeling hit him over and over and over to get that KO. And what happened in Louis' rematch with Schmeling? He destroyed him inside of a round. So I don't see how you can give Lewis the edge in this one but I think it's close either way and so agree to disagree.

Would I put Frazier over Lewis? I don't know. Lewis did accomplish more for sure as far as number of opponents. Were his opponents that much better? Don't know about that but maybe. He did face Vitali along with Tyson and Holyfield. Those are all respectable for sure. Of course, he didn't get the best version of Tyson but I'm not getting picky. So a win over Iron Mike is a big deal and so is one over Holyfield. In fact, I'd say he got a win over prime Vitali. To me, that is very impressive. So no. I'd rank Lewis over Frazier, sherely by accomplishment. Would he beat Frazier? Man, I honestly don't think he would. If Ali had that much trouble with him, I see Frazier putting Lewis down at some point and down hard from repeated blows-not one shot like Rahman and Lewis.

I have Joe Louis over both. He made more defenses than any fighter in history. That has to be considered and he beat several other great heavyweights as well. And yes, I honestly see him beating Lewis but I don't know about Frazier. The battle of the Joes would be one hell of a scrap and I don't know who comes out on top.

Well if you won't allow for circumstances... Ali was stopped by a non puncher in Homes, and lost every round against Berbick. I don't want to hear he was shot, that's just an excuse, right?

So you have a shot Schmelling as being better than a prime Rahman? Oh dear god. No he isn't. Behave yourself.

You give Louis the chin edge as well? I don't think so. Go to YT and type in "Lennox had a great chin" You'll see Lewis had a very good chin. He's hit with some big shots and doesn't even budge. The circumstances around the McCall and Rahman fights should be enough for anyone to not judge his chin based on those two fights.

Haha, Louis destroyed a shot fighter in the second fight. You know, the same shot fighter that beat up and outclassed Louis the first time? Who cares if a prime fighter beat a shot fighter in the second fight. But it's good to see you not have any problem with Louis for that loss but come down hard on Lennox for his, even though the circumstances were very different.

Lewis' jab and right hand at range would see him dominate and knock out Louis in no more than 5 rounds, especially when you know that Louis kept his hands low, so Lewis' shots find a home very easily.

Were Lewis' opponents that much better? Hahahahahahahahaha. No, they weren't. How could anyone live up to the greatness of a failed Middleweight in Ellis, and the great Quarry? I'm obviously being sarcastic. No, Frazier did not come close to beating better fighters than Lewis did. Take a Tua or a Ruddock for example. If they were to fight Frazier prime for prime, it wouldn't take them more than 4 rounds to brutally knock Frazier out. One sided as well.

You don't think Lewis beats Frazier head to head? Hahahahahahahahahahaha. Is everything you say bat**** crazy? Lewis would use the jab to set up the big uppercut while Joe comes forward and blow him away. If you thought the Foreman loss was brutal, Lewis would show Frazier what brutality really is. It's a ****ing mismatch. 2 rounds and it's done. Frazier coming forward plays to Lewis' strengths with his counter punching and his uppercut. Jeez.

Joe Louis never beat a single great Heavyweight, what are you talking about? He beat a few good fighters with the rest being complete bums. They even named it "Bum of the month club" he fought that many bums. For ****s and giggles, could you please list all these "Great" fighters Louis beat?

I've seen some mad boxing fans in my time, but you're right up there with some of the **** you've come out with. The fact you believe this nonsense is beyond worrying. But it has been funny. So thanks for that.