Is Joe Frazier an ATG?

[Nash out]

I liked Joe Frazier, a good solid and entertaining fighter, lacked great skills though. But a top 10 Heavy in his day. He reminds me a lot of a poor man's Dereck Chisora. They had similar dimensions too. History has been to kind on Frazier, though. He had five hard fights in his career and lost four of them.

Again, very similar to Dereck, but Dereck was robbed twice, in fights against Helenius and Whyte, and also beat Takam. Whereas Frazier beat Ali, but lost twice to the same man. So losing the trilogy. And losing to the limited but powerful George Foreman, both times by KO.

His record is also very padded. He was 26-0 before the first Ali fight. And his win list reads like a who's who of who the hell are these guys? Taking everything into consideration, in a match between him and Dereck Chisora. I see Chisora winning by a late stoppage or a close points win.

[Tony Trick-Pony]

Well if you won't allow for circumstances... Ali was stopped by a non puncher in Homes, and lost every round against Berbick. I don't want to hear he was shot, that's just an excuse, right?

So you have a shot Schmelling as being better than a prime Rahman? Oh dear god. No he isn't. Behave yourself.

You give Louis the chin edge as well? I don't think so. Go to YT and type in "Lennox had a great chin" You'll see Lewis had a very good chin. He's hit with some big shots and doesn't even budge. The circumstances around the McCall and Rahman fights should be enough for anyone to not judge his chin based on those two fights.

Haha, Louis destroyed a shot fighter in the second fight. You know, the same shot fighter that beat up and outclassed Louis the first time? Who cares if a prime fighter beat a shot fighter in the second fight. But it's good to see you not have any problem with Louis for that loss but come down hard on Lennox for his, even though the circumstances were very different.

Lewis' jab and right hand at range would see him dominate and knock out Louis in no more than 5 rounds, especially when you know that Louis kept his hands low, so Lewis' shots find a home very easily.

Were Lewis' opponents that much better? Hahahahahahahahaha. No, they weren't. How could anyone live up to the greatness of a failed Middleweight in Ellis, and the great Quarry? I'm obviously being sarcastic. No, Frazier did not come close to beating better fighters than Lewis did. Take a Tua or a Ruddock for example. If they were to fight Frazier prime for prime, it wouldn't take them more than 4 rounds to brutally knock Frazier out. One sided as well.

You don't think Lewis beats Frazier head to head? Hahahahahahahahahahaha. Is everything you say bat**** crazy? Lewis would use the jab to set up the big uppercut while Joe comes forward and blow him away. If you thought the Foreman loss was brutal, Lewis would show Frazier what brutality really is. It's a ****ing mismatch. 2 rounds and it's done. Frazier coming forward plays to Lewis' strengths with his counter punching and his uppercut. Jeez.

Joe Louis never beat a single great Heavyweight, what are you talking about? He beat a few good fighters with the rest being complete bums. They even named it "Bum of the month club" he fought that many bums. For ****s and giggles, could you please list all these "Great" fighters Louis beat?

I've seen some mad boxing fans in my time, but you're right up there with some of the **** you've come out with. The fact you believe this nonsense is beyond worrying. But it has been funny. So thanks for that.

Ali was all but retired when he fought those guys. Lewis was a much younger, fresher fighter when he lost to Rahman.

How is Rahman better than Schmeling? What great accomplishments do you attritbute to the great Rahman? Haha. This dude knocked out Lennox and what else? He got handed a belt by the WBC and then struggled to a draw with James Toney and then lost to Maskaev for the second time-knocked out of the ring even. And what great accomplishments did Maskaev have before this or after? You want to start tearing resumes down, that's fine. It's the easiest thing to do when talking about this sport. Lennox himself only beat ATG Vitali in his prime really, which is great but Vitali was even coming on in that fight. Holyfield and Tyson were "Shot" as you like to point out, when Lennox fought them. You know this. Tyson had no head movement and was drunk or high a lot outside the ring. All kinds of problems. I mean, really, let's take a closer look.

David Tua? Absolute beast no doubt, but limited. Very limited. Ibeabuchi took him to school long before Lewis did and Tua never even won a title.

Botha? Gave Tyson a tough fight but still lost. No other significant wins.

Grant? Never beat anybody of substance.

Mavrovic? Never beat anybody of substance.

Briggs? Decent heavyweight but never that good. Did he have any big wins? Can't think of any. Maybe Foreman but did he even win that really? And against a what, 48-year-old?

Golota? Who didn't beat Golota?

Akinwande? The clinch king? LOL

Crying McCall? Haha. That dude was beat before he left the dressing room.

Mercer? 40-year-old Holmes showed how "great" Mercer was. had talent but underachiever big time.

Morrison? had a few good wins and had potential but had AIDS when he fought Lewis. Couldn't have been the beacon of health. However he did just beat Ruddock. So not too bad.

Justine Fortune? Clearly, a household name.

Lionel Butler? Mr. Tuesday Night Fights? Haha. Dude rattled off a few wins after a rough start and got crushed every time he stepped up. He'd fit in nicely with Joe's bum of the month club.

Jackson? Biggest wins there? Well he beat carl the truth williams. Oh no wait. He just beat some 10-9 dude names Carl Williams. Haha. So he did jack shlt as well.

Frank Bruno? The muscle-bound goof who had to hug his way to a decision over Crying McCall? Haha. Decent name but anybody with any skill always took Bruno. Look what Tyson did to him twice.

Tucker was a decent win but everytime he stepped up, he fell short as well.

The Ruddock win was a nice one for sure. But even in that case, it's Tyson's leftovers.

Other than that, you got washed up Biggs and Weaver and I mean, very washed up. Those dudes hadn't been relevant in ten years at that point.

Now, you see how easy that is to break down a fighter's career? Why don't go ahead and break down Louis' now expert? Probably won't sound any shlttier than Lewis'.

Back to the original topic of Frazier (Damn, we sure got far away from that haha) you can call his opponents all bums too except for Foreman, Ali, Quarry and Foster. With Lewis, you got Holyfield, Tyson and Vitali. Hard to see any huge vast disparity between the two here. If you really want to, you can make anybody sound like a bum. Or you can take a more honest assessment, which is where I hope this thread is heading.

And Joe Louis beat Jersey Joe Walcott, Max Baer, James J. Braddock and Billy Conn. I know you'll have reasons why they're not great either though, tough guy. I've got my popcorn ready.

[Sid-Knee]

Ali was all but retired when he fought those guys. Lewis was a much younger, fresher fighter when he lost to Rahman.

How is Rahman better than Schmeling? What great accomplishments do you attritbute to the great Rahman? Haha. This dude knocked out Lennox and what else? He got handed a belt by the WBC and then struggled to a draw with James Toney and then lost to Maskaev for the second time-knocked out of the ring even. And what great accomplishments did Maskaev have before this or after? You want to start tearing resumes down, that's fine. It's the easiest thing to do when talking about this sport. Lennox himself only beat ATG Vitali in his prime really, which is great but Vitali was even coming on in that fight. Holyfield and Tyson were "Shot" as you like to point out, when Lennox fought them. You know this. Tyson had no head movement and was drunk or high a lot outside the ring. All kinds of problems. I mean, really, let's take a closer look.

David Tua? Absolute beast no doubt, but limited. Very limited. Ibeabuchi took him to school long before Lewis did and Tua never even won a title.

Botha? Gave Tyson a tough fight but still lost. No other significant wins.

Grant? Never beat anybody of substance.

Mavrovic? Never beat anybody of substance.

Briggs? Decent heavyweight but never that good. Did he have any big wins? Can't think of any. Maybe Foreman but did he even win that really? And against a what, 48-year-old?

Golota? Who didn't beat Golota?

Akinwande? The clinch king? LOL

Crying McCall? Haha. That dude was beat before he left the dressing room.

Mercer? 40-year-old Holmes showed how "great" Mercer was. had talent but underachiever big time.

Morrison? had a few good wins and had potential but had AIDS when he fought Lewis. Couldn't have been the beacon of health. However he did just beat Ruddock. So not too bad.

Justine Fortune? Clearly, a household name.

Lionel Butler? Mr. Tuesday Night Fights? Haha. Dude rattled off a few wins after a rough start and got crushed every time he stepped up. He'd fit in nicely with Joe's bum of the month club.

Jackson? Biggest wins there? Well he beat carl the truth williams. Oh no wait. He just beat some 10-9 dude names Carl Williams. Haha. So he did jack shlt as well.

Frank Bruno? The muscle-bound goof who had to hug his way to a decision over Crying McCall? Haha. Decent name but anybody with any skill always took Bruno. Look what Tyson did to him twice.

Tucker was a decent win but everytime he stepped up, he fell short as well.

The Ruddock win was a nice one for sure. But even in that case, it's Tyson's leftovers.

Other than that, you got washed up Biggs and Weaver and I mean, very washed up. Those dudes hadn't been relevant in ten years at that point.

Now, you see how easy that is to break down a fighter's career? Why don't go ahead and break down Louis' now expert? Probably won't sound any shlttier than Lewis'.

Back to the original topic of Frazier (Damn, we sure got far away from that haha) you can call his opponents all bums too except for Foreman, Ali, Quarry and Foster. With Lewis, you got Holyfield, Tyson and Vitali. Hard to see any huge vast disparity between the two here. If you really want to, you can make anybody sound like a bum. Or you can take a more honest assessment, which is where I hope this thread is heading.

And Joe Louis beat Jersey Joe Walcott, Max Baer, James J. Braddock and Billy Conn. I know you'll have reasons why they're not great either though, tough guy. I've got my popcorn ready.

See, you make excuses for Ali that you don't for Lennox. That's hypocrisy.

Rahman was nothing more than a good world class fighter. But he's still better than a shot Schmelling. Rahman also beat a prime Sanders. Drew with Tua.

Holyfield wasn't close to shot. His performance in the second Lewis fight was one of his best performances. Especially when you acknowledge he was in there with a legit great. Tyson was clearly past his best, but he wasn't shot. He was still a good fighter at that point who could beat other good fighters like Golota.

Ibeabuchi took Tua to school? You clearly haven't watched the fight then. It was close. I had Tua by a point, as did many others.

The rest I can't be bothered to debate about because it's nothing but the same rubbish with you. They were good world class fighters, not ATG's like you try to make fighters of the past look like.

You can make anybody sound like a bum if you're completely clueless about said fighters. But to think Frazier and Lewis have the same wins or there about is beyond insanity.

Bear, Braddock, Conn and Walcott are great fighters to you? Walcott I can live with being called a good fighter, but great? Conn started out as a ****ing Lightweight. How can a Heavyweight beating him mean anything? Please. Buddy Baer was a bum. You're thinking of the "Clown prince" Max Baer. They didn't even fight. And all Braddock did was cause an upset against Max who wasn't even taking things seriously at the time. Braddock would then go and lose to Louis. So 2 of these you could call good at best. The other 2 aren't even worth discussing.

But that's the best you could do in naming the quality fighters Louis beat? Exactly. So many bums there it's shocking. But please let me see your argument for them being great?

[Tony Trick-Pony]

See, you make excuses for Ali that you don't for Lennox. That's hypocrisy.

Rahman was nothing more than a good world class fighter. But he's still better than a shot Schmelling. Rahman also beat a prime Sanders. Drew with Tua.

Holyfield wasn't close to shot. His performance in the second Lewis fight was one of his best performances. Especially when you acknowledge he was in there with a legit great. Tyson was clearly past his best, but he wasn't shot. He was still a good fighter at that point who could beat other good fighters like Golota.

Ibeabuchi took Tua to school? You clearly haven't watched the fight then. It was close. I had Tua by a point, as did many others.

The rest I can't be bothered to debate about because it's nothing but the same rubbish with you. They were good world class fighters, not ATG's like you try to make fighters of the past look like.

You can make anybody sound like a bum if you're completely clueless about said fighters. But to think Frazier and Lewis have the same wins or there about is beyond insanity.

Bear, Braddock, Conn and Walcott are great fighters to you? Walcott I can live with being called a good fighter, but great? Conn started out as a ****ing Lightweight. How can a Heavyweight beating him mean anything? Please. Buddy Baer was a bum. You're thinking of the "Clown prince" Max Baer. They didn't even fight. And all Braddock did was cause an upset against Max who wasn't even taking things seriously at the time. Braddock would then go and lose to Louis. So 2 of these you could call good at best. The other 2 aren't even worth discussing.

But that's the best you could do in naming the quality fighters Louis beat? Exactly. So many bums there it's shocking. But please let me see your argument for them being great?

Max Baer- They didn't even fight? You're talking about Joe Louis? He didn't knock MAX Baer out in the fourth round in 1935?

I didn't mention Buddy Baer. You did but you're putting words in my mouth now. No need to descend into that technique.

You seem like you're taking this personally with all the insults and what not. It's not. It's a simple discussion, man. Take it easy.

Rahman beat a prime Sanders in a close fight and very enteratining one as well. That's all well and good and drew with Tua. I don't argue against that. What I find interesting is that you argue that someone like Oscar Bonavena was a bum. This guy gave every heavyweight in his day a tough ass fight. Am I to just throw that out the window? That doesn't matter at all? Your thinking strikes me as extremem. I don't see a big difference in guys like Bonavena and Rahman to be honest. How can you say one is so superior to the other? I mean, hell, Rahman had a few good wins and a lot of losses as well. You can't just look at one piece of the puzzle here when taking into account a fighter's career.

I already broke down Lewis' record for you as you well know. It's stellar but it's not out of this world great either. You have to take these guys for what they are.

Conn did start out at lightweight when he was 17 but by the time he fought Louis, he'd been fighting at 175 and above for a few years. See what you did there? You gloss it over with one little aspect. You don't look at the whole picture. Just like my thread about tearing down a fighter's resume. We can all do that. It's not hard and damn sure doesn't make you special.

Braddock beat Max Baer, going in as a huge underdog against a guy who'd killed a few men in the ring. I don't really give a damn if Max wasn't taking him seriously. That's his problem. Tyson didn't take Douglas seriously but that doesn't make the win any less great.

[Tony Trick-Pony]

I liked Joe Frazier, a good solid and entertaining fighter, lacked great skills though. But a top 10 Heavy in his day. He reminds me a lot of a poor man's Dereck Chisora. They had similar dimensions too. History has been to kind on Frazier, though. He had five hard fights in his career and lost four of them.

Again, very similar to Dereck, but Dereck was robbed twice, in fights against Helenius and Whyte, and also beat Takam. Whereas Frazier beat Ali, but lost twice to the same man. So losing the trilogy. And losing to the limited but powerful George Foreman, both times by KO.

His record is also very padded. He was 26-0 before the first Ali fight. And his win list reads like a who's who of who the hell are these guys? Taking everything into consideration, in a match between him and Dereck Chisora. I see Chisora winning by a late stoppage or a close points win.

Could the mods get rid of Lester again? Dude has no life at all.

[Sid-Knee]

Max Baer- They didn't even fight? You're talking about Joe Louis? He didn't knock MAX Baer out in the fourth round in 1935?

I didn't mention Buddy Baer. You did but you're putting words in my mouth now. No need to descend into that technique.

You seem like you're taking this personally with all the insults and what not. It's not. It's a simple discussion, man. Take it easy.

Rahman beat a prime Sanders in a close fight and very enteratining one as well. That's all well and good and drew with Tua. I don't argue against that. What I find interesting is that you argue that someone like Oscar Bonavena was a bum. This guy gave every heavyweight in his day a tough ass fight. Am I to just throw that out the window? That doesn't matter at all? Your thinking strikes me as extremem. I don't see a big difference in guys like Bonavena and Rahman to be honest. How can you say one is so superior to the other? I mean, hell, Rahman had a few good wins and a lot of losses as well. You can't just look at one piece of the puzzle here when taking into account a fighter's career.

I already broke down Lewis' record for you as you well know. It's stellar but it's not out of this world great either. You have to take these guys for what they are.

Conn did start out at lightweight when he was 17 but by the time he fought Louis, he'd been fighting at 175 and above for a few years. See what you did there? You gloss it over with one little aspect. You don't look at the whole picture. Just like my thread about tearing down a fighter's resume. We can all do that. It's not hard and damn sure doesn't make you special.

Braddock beat Max Baer, going in as a huge underdog against a guy who'd killed a few men in the ring. I don't really give a damn if Max wasn't taking him seriously. That's his problem. Tyson didn't take Douglas seriously but that doesn't make the win any less great.

Just took a look at Boxrec and saw he fought Max. I forgot he even fought him. It was very early in Louis' career. So yeah, that was a good win.

I use words like "Rubbish" and "Insanity" and you see that as insulting? Damn. If I was being insulting you'd definitely know about it. That's really tame, man. But if you think i'm being insulting I don't mean to be.

Bonavena never came close to beating fighters like Sanders and Lewis (Even if Lewis was in a bad way) and drawing with the likes of Tua. Not even close. So saying they're pretty much the same level is just crazy to me. Sorry. And as for skill level, Rahman is like Lennox Lewis on his best day whereas Bonavena is just a crude brawler. A punch bag. Most of Rahman's losses came after the rematch with Lewis where he went on a downward spiral. He just kept on getting worse, and fatter, by the fight after that.

Conn was Lightheavyweight champion, I don't dispute that. But he still started at Lightweight. Besides, beating a Lightheavyweight who hasn't done anything at the weight is no good win. Conn had to at least beat someone good at the weight for Louis to get any credit from it. And he didn't. So it is what it is. Can't rate it, sorry.

[Tony Trick-Pony]

Just took a look at Boxrec and saw he fought Max. I forgot he even fought him. It was very early in Louis' career. So yeah, that was a good win.

I use words like "Rubbish" and "Insanity" and you see that as insulting? Damn. If I was being insulting you'd definitely know about it. That's really tame, man. But if you think i'm being insulting I don't mean to be.

Bonavena never came close to beating fighters like Sanders and Lewis (Even if Lewis was in a bad way) and drawing with the likes of Tua. Not even close. So saying they're pretty much the same level is just crazy to me. Sorry. And as for skill level, Rahman is like Lennox Lewis on his best day whereas Bonavena is just a crude brawler. A punch bag. Most of Rahman's losses came after the rematch with Lewis where he went on a downward spiral. He just kept on getting worse, and fatter, by the fight after that.

Conn was Lightheavyweight champion, I don't dispute that. But he still started at Lightweight. Besides, beating a Lightheavyweight who hasn't done anything at the weight is no good win. Conn had to at least beat someone good at the weight for Louis to get any credit from it. And he didn't. So it is what it is. Can't rate it, sorry.

Its' all well and good, man. Good points made. I guess we just see the situation differently and that's fine. Good posting. It's why this site exists I guess. Haha. At least we both love to watch the fights and I'm looking forward to some good ones in 2019. Wilder-Fury may not turn out to be a dud but I'm not holding my breath.

[Sid-Knee]

Its' all well and good, man. Good points made. I guess we just see the situation differently and that's fine. Good posting. It's why this site exists I guess. Haha. At least we both love to watch the fights and I'm looking forward to some good ones in 2019. Wilder-Fury may not turn out to be a dud but I'm not holding my breath.

No problem.

As for Fury/Wilder. I do believe Fury will be much better than he was in his last 2 outings because he's fighting a real threat this time so he won't be spending his camp messing around. He can't afford to. He knows Wilder brings danger in that right hand so he'll be about as sharp as he possibly can considering the circumstances. But will it be enough? I don't hold out much hope. But as you say, we'll see Saturday.

[Nash out]

I see Fury beating Wilder, but Wilder doing well enough to hold on to P4P World #2. No shame in losing to the best.