Usyk vs Ward.

[Mr Objecitivity]

Yes, there is no objective way to prove if one division is stronger or weaker than another, but don't do a complete 180 and say division strength doesn't matter. It does. I think it's both in this case: Usyk IS that much better than the comp, and the competition just isn't very good. That's precisely why it's so great to see this tourney and if and when he wins, it'll be a legacy-defining notch on his belt. Ultimately, it probably still won't be enough to get him on mainstream p4p lists, and he will have to either defend his spot for the next 10 years like vladimir did or move up and prove himself at heavyweight. Just the sad reality, unfortunately.

Vladimir Klitchsko's legacy defining moment is a loss to Anthony Joshua. It's crazy that he will get more credit for how he fought in a KO loss than any other stretch of his title reign, but that's what happens when you are the man of a division during a weak era.

To me, if one can't establish the strength of a division using a fool-proof method / system, then division 'strength' is a futile concept to begin with. As far as I'm concerned, being the best in one's own weight division that one is competing in is enough and if a boxer beats the best opponents in his division, then he is the best in that particular weight division.

I really could careless about official pound for pound rankings, since they aren't based on any objective criteria. It's mainly based on personal, subjective speculation and conjecture. How can one prove if a boxer is going to beat another boxer if they were in the same weight division, if the bout was purely based on skills?

Objectively, Wladimir Klitschko is the greatest heavyweight in history, bar none. He has the most unique feats in heavyweight boxing history. Unless you can actually prove that his era was 'weak' compared to any other era, that statement is as worthy as someone claiming the sky is red or reality doesn't exist. In other words, it holds no worth in an objective discussion.

[BM dnobagaV]

As great as Ward is he’d lose comfortably against Usyk....

[DrHouse579]

To me, if one can't establish the strength of a division using a fool-proof method / system, then division 'strength' is a futile concept to begin with. As far as I'm concerned, being the best in one's own weight division that one is competing in is enough and if a boxer beats the best opponents in his division, then he is the best in that particular weight division.

I really could careless about official pound for pound rankings, since they aren't based on any objective criteria. It's mainly based on personal, subjective speculation and conjecture. How can one prove if a boxer is going to beat another boxer if they were in the same weight division, if the bout was purely based on skills?

Objectively, Wladimir Klitschko is the greatest heavyweight in history, bar none. He has the most unique feats in heavyweight boxing history. Unless you can actually prove that his era was 'weak' compared to any other era, that statement is as worthy as someone claiming the sky is red or reality doesn't exist. In other words, it holds no worth in an objective discussion.

Again, why are you going to extremes? Since it's impossible to prove division strength, it doesn't matter? That is nonsense. We still haven't proven or developed a quantum model of gravity, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it's safe to jump out of a building.

OK, so it's impossible to establish division strength (which is true), but you can say for absolute certainty that Vladimir is the GOAT? Objectively, he's been KO'd multiple times, and objectively, he got owned by Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua and objectively didn't avenge all of his losses, so..

And the whole point of this thread is to see if Ward would have a chance at Usyk... it's a complete fantasy match-up at 2 different weights, so p4p and division strength are very relevant here..

[g27region]

OK, so you agree Perez had not fought at CW before, definitely had not been 12 rounds at CW, hadn't REALLY fought since 2015

The problem is, you making it sound like Perez wasn't the only wildcard of the tournament. On the other hand, you said this about Braehmer

And Braehmer is possibly more dangerous at 168 than Huck was at 200 because he will be the naturally bigger guy against everyone in the tourney except maybe Callum.

You're talking about the guy who's moving down to the new division with zero experience after being inactive for a long period of time. Yeah, that definitely sounds like Braehmer

You're criticizing Perez for that but the same stuff can be said about Braehmer (inactivity, zero experience at the weight class), yet you include him in your list to show how "stacked" that empty division is, but ignore Perez while saying that "CW only has 2-3 names". So what's up with these double standarts?

Don't tell me that Braehmer was a legit champion unlike Perez, he never moved outside Germany, at least Perez was fighting out of his confort zone

and probably should not have caused Breidis any problems?

He never caused any problems for Briedis. Briedis fought this way because Perez wasn't uncomfortable with it, if you want to see how Briedis can adjust to his opponents, watch his fight against Charr, it was completely different and it was way more agressive

Having a loss or two doesn't hurt as much if they were against top level opposition. Eubank Jr lost a narrow decision to a much more experienced and crafty BJS.

Povetkin might be a cheater, but a loss against him is nothing to be ashamed of, according to your logic, because he looks more like a top level competition than Billy Joe Saunders. But "not old, wihout multiple losses, not tapped out potential-wise" was your criteria, not mine, and most of these 168 names ain't eligible for it

Think about it, the favorite of WBSS (Eubank) 168 got his zero taken by the guy (BJS) who would lost to 3-4 guys in the division below (Charlo, Golovkin, Jacobs, Canelo). That's all you need to know about the level of competition at 168

Smith Benavidez and Ramirez perfectly fit my description of young, undefeated fighters who haven't fulfilled their potential. BUT most importantly, everyone I just listed are proven at world level in some way or another more than Gassiev, Dorticos, and Breidis.

OK, name me one victory of Smith, Benavidez and Ramirez combined that trumps victories over Lebedev or Huck who were dominant champions at the weight for a long period of time? Not to mention that Gassiev, Dorticos and Briedis looked better against their opposition

Dorticos and Breidis are in their 30's and unlikely to show anymore improvement. Gassiev is the youngest at CW with the most potential, but we need to see how he does in this tourney to even get started on where he could go (1 close decision over 38 year old Lebedev isn't enough for me).

Even 38 y.o Lebedev is still a damn good fighter and a good name to have in your resume

All things aside, you said that 147-168 divisions are more stacked
Well, you have 4 cruiserweight champions in their prime, high KO ratio, undefeated, with some solid/decent scalps.

Name me 4 undefeated titleholders at the peak of their physical conditions in each division from 147 to 168 with scalps of Lebedev/Huck/Glowacki caliber if you say these divisions are deeper. That's simple question, you don't have to respond to the rest of the message, I'll wait. Just 4 names in each weight class.

I might even agree that 147 can compete with CW in terms of being stacked, but not the rest of these divisions

[Mr Objecitivity]

Again, why are you going to extremes? Since it's impossible to prove division strength, it doesn't matter? That is nonsense. We still haven't proven or developed a quantum model of gravity, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist or that it's safe to jump out of a building.

OK, so it's impossible to establish division strength (which is true), but you can say for absolute certainty that Vladimir is the GOAT? Objectively, he's been KO'd multiple times, and objectively, he got owned by Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua and objectively didn't avenge all of his losses, so..

And the whole point of this thread is to see if Ward would have a chance at Usyk... it's a complete fantasy match-up at 2 different weights, so p4p and division strength are very relevant here..

First clarify what you mean by 'matters'.

Secondly, if there isn't an objective way to prove a specific concept like 'strength of division' exists, then how can we infer anything related to that concept. In the end, it's simply subjective. You can claim that the cruiserweight division is weak. Whilst I can respond by claiming that the cruiserweight division is strong. In the end, neither one of us are right or wrong, since it's our own, personal opinion. In other words, both of our opinion holds the same worth / value (or lack of).

As far as the quantum gravity analogy you used, it's a false analogy! We know gravity exists because we can experience the effects of it. There doesn't have to be a complete model for me to know that if people jump out of a building, they would die.

I can't say anything for 'ABSOLUTE' certainty. I can't even claim that I exist for 'absolute' certainty. However, I can state with reasonable degree of certainty that Wladimir Klitschko is the greatest heavyweight of all time, by modern standards, according to his record.

Objectively, he's been KO'd multiple times, and objectively, he got owned by Tyson Fury and Anthony Joshua and objectively didn't avenge all of his losses

How do any of those things disqualify Wlad from being the greatest heavyweight of all time?

As far as Usyk vs Ward match up, since the bout is happening at cruiserweight and since Ward has absolutely 0 feats at cruiserweight (despite having the chance to prove himself at that weight), I would rather go by what has happened, which is that Usyk is a proven cruiserweight and is one of the two best in the division. Thus, I make him the HEAVY favorite.

[DrHouse579]

Even 38 y.o Lebedev is still a damn good fighter and a good name to have in your resume

All things aside, you said that 147-168 divisions are more stacked
Well, you have 4 cruiserweight champions in their prime, high KO ratio, undefeated, with some solid/decent scalps.

Name me 4 undefeated titleholders at the peak of their physical conditions in each division from 147 to 168 with scalps of Lebedev/Huck/Glowacki caliber if you say these divisions are deeper. That's simple question, you don't have to respond to the rest of the message, I'll wait. Just 4 names in each weight class.

I might even agree that 147 can compete with CW in terms of being stacked, but not the rest of these divisions

I'm going to say this.. the WBSS @168 doesn't encompass nearly all the talent at the weight class. We're missing Degale, Benevidez, Ramirez, and the Dirrel's.

Literally everybody who is going to be anybody @200 is in the WBSS and there's only 3 who I consider have any decent names on their resumes (Usyk, Gassiev, and Breidis). Think about that.

The winner of WBSS super middle can still make big fights with the other names. Where does the winner of WBSS cruiser tourney go? Move up to heavy?

168/
George Groves - 29 yo - Win over James Degale, SD loss to Badou Jack who is now a champ at 175

Eubank Jr - 28 yo - Win over Abraham is equivalent to anybody at Cruiser with win over Huck/Lebedev. Talent-wise he's undeniably better than Breidis, Gassiev, and Dorticos

James Degale - beats all resumes except maybe Usyk

Gilberto Ramirez - 26 yo - win over Bursack and Abraham is better than anybody at Cruiser with win over Huck/Lebedev

Benavidez - 20 yo - young dude just got the WBC strap albeit a bit controversially, but still stopped Porky Medina the fight before. More exciting and more potential than any of them at cruiser

Callum Smith - 26 yo - pretty untested British product, and looked bad against Skoglund but at 6'3 he's huge for the weight and still got time to improve a lot.

So, there, 4 super middle's with resumes matching or exceeding those of Dorticos, Gassiev, and Breidis. And I included 2 more just to point out guys that are on the rise that can make noise... which is the opposite of the CW division - 38 yo Lebedev, 31 yo Glowacki, 36 yo Wlodarczyk... you get the point..

I actually like Andrew Tabiti, the one decent up and comer at 200 I have my eye on, but he hasn't done much either.

[DrHouse579]

The problem is, you making it sound like Perez wasn't the only wildcard of the tournament. On the other hand, you said this about Braehmer



You're talking about the guy who's moving down to the new division with zero experience after being inactive for a long period of time. Yeah, that definitely sounds like Braehmer

You're criticizing Perez for that but the same stuff can be said about Braehmer (inactivity, zero experience at the weight class), yet you include him in your list to show how "stacked" that empty division is, but ignore Perez while saying that "CW only has 2-3 names". So what's up with these double standarts?

Don't tell me that Braehmer was a legit champion unlike Perez, he never moved outside Germany, at least Perez was fighting out of his confort zone

Bro, Braehmer was at 168 before moving up to 175 to win a title... are you confused about something? First, you said Perez moved up from cruiserweight, now you are saying Braehmer is just like Perez because he never fought at 168 before... WHAT? Braehmer is more accomplished as a boxer and had more experience at 168 than Perez at 200. Period, end of.

And to clarify, I didn't criticize Perez for that stuff. I think he showed balls to put himself out there like this especially after that brutal KO loss to Povetkin, where he just didn't look mentally there.

I was saying Perez shouldn't be considered a worthy name AT ALL at cruiserweight. There were too many things working against him: stoppage loss in last fight, long layoff (2 years), never fought at the weight before, fighting on Breidis' home turf. Would you consider it a good name if someone like Issac Chilemba came down from 175 to be in the WBSS tourney, hadn't gone 12 rounds in a while, and someone like Callum Smith beat him? To be fair, I am of the belief that none of the top seeds who picked their first fight should be given that much credit for beating opponents they literally hand-picked. I give Usyk props ONLY because Huck is a tough m*fo and he still managed to stop him.

[DrHouse579]

As far as the quantum gravity analogy you used, it's a false analogy! We know gravity exists because we can experience the effects of it. There doesn't have to be a complete model for me to know that if people jump out of a building, they would die.

I can't say anything for 'ABSOLUTE' certainty. I can't even claim that I exist for 'absolute' certainty. However, I can state with reasonable degree of certainty that Wladimir Klitschko is the greatest heavyweight of all time, by modern standards, according to his record.

OK, this is what you said about why division strength can't be measured..

To me, if one can't establish the strength of a division using a fool-proof method / system, then division 'strength' is a futile concept to begin with. As far as I'm concerned, being the best in one's own weight division that one is competing in is enough and if a boxer beats the best opponents in his division, then he is the best in that particular weight division.

There is no quantum system that models gravity. We can measure light in photons, sound as vibrations, but there is no "gravity" particle or way of understanding what it is. We just accept it because we can experience it and it fits with our understanding of the universe. But, you can't directly measure it. That's because quantum physics has to do with electron movement, and that is inherently embedded in tons of uncertainty. Just FYI

Just like gravity, there is no fool-proof method / system to measure "greatness" so what is your point? How can you reasonably assume (beyond acknowledging this is all just based on your subjective interpretation of his record / eye-test) that he is the GOAT without a fool-proof method?

[mlac]

Every time i open this thread your getting owned again dr, give it up bud

[DrHouse579]

Every time i open this thread your getting owned again dr, give it up bud

Had to take a break from this ass beating, huh?

OK, then. By that logic I have to be a fan of both Adrien Broner and Floyd Mayweather? Since AB clearly tries emulate that counterpunching style with the shoulder roll, AB is automatically on Floyd's level, right? Style =/= skills, sir.

Am I wrong in saying Ward = A level and Breidis = B level? OK then what's the problem with me running through the alphabet?

Yeah, Perez wasn't drained but I'm making the point that Breidis should have looked much better against a guy coming into a new weight class than he did. Clinching and hugging isn't all that Ward does. He's primarily an inside fighter and that means he needs to wrestle and make it dirty at times to get position.

It's OK bro, not everyone can hang