Unified or Lineal?

[KillaCamNZ]

It's determined by the fans and experts. You think the orgs that only think about what's best for them is a better way?

Since when did fans and experts ever agree among themselves on anything?

This is where people have poked holes in your argument previously - there is no consensus on what constitutes the "rules" around this pseudo-title. If there is no consensus on how it flows, and no one owns the concept of it, how can there be one way?

You can put forward what you think is the rules around it, and there will be people who share that opinion. But who mediates when there are disagreements? No one can, because lineal is simply a concept in many forms.

There's a reason why history is littered with arguments, discussions and controversies regarding this "title".

[Robbie Barrett]

Since when did fans and experts ever agree among themselves on anything?

This is where people have poked holes in your argument previously - there is no consensus on what constitutes the "rules" around this pseudo-title. If there is no consensus on how it flows, and no one owns the concept of it, how can there be one way?

You can put forward what you think is the rules around it, and there will be people who share that opinion. But who mediates when there are disagreements? No one can, because lineal is simply a concept in many forms.

There's a reason why history is littered with arguments, discussions and controversies regarding this "title".

No the rules are pretty clear. You beat the champ or the winner of a fight between the 2 fighters viewed at the 2 best to create a new lineage if it's vacant. It's pretty simple.

Relying on the opinion of the orgs isn't better. They regular strip and make fights between fighters who nobody views as the best for their vacant titles.

[KillaCamNZ]

No the rules are pretty clear. You beat the champ or the winner of a fight between the 2 fighters viewed at the 2 best to create a new lineage if it's vacant. It's pretty simple.

Relying on the opinion of the orgs isn't better. They regular strip and make fights between fighters who nobody views as the best for their vacant titles.

You're completely missing the point - the rules aren't clear, because there is no consensus on the rules and no one owns the rules to validate it. Unless you're going to throw a name out there of someone who the buck stops with?

How can there be a consensus on who the best 2 fighters are, if people can't agree on who the best 2 fighters are? That's opinion based, not fact based.

You're struggling to figure out the difference between those two things.

I said it before and I'll say it again - there's a reason why history is littered with disagreements on lineal titles, no matter how much you ignore that, it's true.

[DreamerUSA]

What do you mean can't be determined? It's pretty easy in most cases. Take MW for example. Hopkins was clearly the MW and lineal champ> Taylor beat him> Pavlik beat him> Martinez beat him> Cotto beat him> Canelo beat him.

Along the way the orgs stripped the real champions and now Golovkin owns 3 titles and BJS one. That's bull****. Beat the man to become the man. Lineal means much more than orgs that decide who their champ is.

Your own example shows why lineal holds no more significance than a paper belt. Does anyone in their right mind actually believe Cotto was the best MW in the world? I mean, beating a crippled Martinez is suppose to mean you're the man? ****ing Canelo is the lineal now and has never actually fought at the MW limit. Mother****ers hiding out with the lineal just like they do paper belts.

Also as to you bringing up rankings. Who exactly determines number one and two in a division? There is more than one website that tracks lineal champs and just an example of the nonsense, Crawford is'nt considered the lineal at 140 or Yamanaka at 118 by Cyber Boxing Zone.

So no. Lineal holds no more weight than anything else.

[KillaCamNZ]

Also as to you bringing up rankings. Who exactly determines number one and two in a division? There is more than one website that tracks lineal champs and just an example of the nonsense, Crawford is'nt considered the lineal at 140 or Yamanaka at 118 by Cyber Boxing Zone..

100%. This is where his argument continually falls short, and you're unlikely to see a logical retort to your point.

[Robbie Barrett]

You're completely missing the point - the rules aren't clear, because there is no consensus on the rules and no one owns the rules to validate it. Unless you're going to throw a name out there of someone who the buck stops with?

How can there be a consensus on who the best 2 fighters are, if people can't agree on who the best 2 fighters are? That's opinion based, not fact based.

You're struggling to figure out the difference between those two things.

I said it before and I'll say it again - there's a reason why history is littered with disagreements on lineal titles, no matter how much you ignore that, it's true.

All rankings are opinion based. The orgs rankings are opinion based, the opinions of the orgs. You think the orgs deciding for you is better than what the fans and experts opinions? Sure there are disagreements but not as many as fans disagreeing with the orgs and there's many lineages like Canelos's that can't be disputed.

Take any lists of the orgs champions for a division and compare it with the lineal that the majority of boxing fans agree with. Tell me which represents who was the divisions champions better.

[_Maxi]

You can only become lineal by beating the champ or the guy viewed as the best in the division.

The orgs decide who they want as title holders. They strip guys or give titles to get who they want as a title holder.


Pretty clear which means more.

No, and you know it.

You become lineal by beating the man who beat the man, and period. That's it. The man who beat the man.

Doesn't matter if the man you beat, is the man who beat a fighter that couldn't even run during training camp and was coming back after two knee surgeries. Lineal doesn't consider any of that. Doesn't consider if you beat the man at a 155 CW. According to some, you can also vacate the titles, move down and up from division and still be considered lineal. Which shows how little value the lineal title has.

It's much harder to become undisputed.

[SensFullViolenc]

It all depends on who you beat. If you become lineal by beating a weak champion, that dont mean squat.

By the same token, if you unify against a bunch of cans, who cares.

IMO, if you follow boxing enough, you can ignore all belts, titles, etc. You know that if someone has beaten or looked good vs. many other good fighters, that they are the goods.

Although generally, i think its more likely that lineal has become watered down, and that a lineal champ isnt much, than that all 3 or 4 titleists in a division are all weak. So more likely, unified, esp if its 3 belts is "better" than lineal, but why wouldnt you go deeper, and look at the resume.

[SensFullViolenc]

Middleweight "lineal" is a prime example of how a lineage becomes watered down. Cotto beats a cripple, and now the middleweight lineage turns into a 155 lb. championship

[boxinghead530]

No, and you know it.

You become lineal by beating the man who beat the man, and period. That's it. The man who beat the man.

Doesn't matter if the man you beat, is the man who beat a fighter that couldn't even run during training camp and was coming back after two knee surgeries. Lineal doesn't consider any of that. Doesn't consider if you beat the man at a 155 CW. According to some, you can also vacate the titles, move down and up from division and still be considered lineal. Which shows how little value the lineal title has.

It's much harder to become undisputed.

Question:

Is it even possible these day to figure out who is the man who beat the man who beat the man?

My thing is if their is no lineal title in a division then how do you become lineal these days without becoming Undisputed first?

These days you hear how this fighter won the Lineal title this many times in this many divisions or that fighter who the lineal title this many times?

Can we all agree that lineal is pretty much a useless title unless that fighter becomes undisputed first to start a new lineage?