Best Welterweight Ever?

[Left2body]

Oh contrair. De La Hoya does count because it was a very controversial decision. Oscar lost that fight because he went into defensive mode. Tito was aggressive; but wasn't effective until Oscar quit attacking.

Hopkins outboxed and outmuscled Tito. Besides Vargas, Tito was never in a life and death struggle and when challenged by a superior boxer, he didn't have the answers. He never showed the ability to think in the ring. He had a game plan that worked against 90% of the guys he got in the ring with; but didn't have a back-up plan when things didn't go according to plan.

Top fighters Tito faced:

Whitaker....old and shopworn

De La Hoya...controversial decision

Camacho....wasn't a great fighter since facing Rosario; and was fighting above his best weight

Hopkins.....kayoed by

Wright......schooled completely


See? Tito beat a bunch of good fighters like Blocker, Campas, Carr, Camacho, & Vargas; but never really excelled against the upper tier. That's my reasoning for keeping him out of the top 10.

You have forgoten David Reid and an undefeated Oba Carr. The one thing that can't be denied win or lose is that Tito took on the very best welters that were around at his time and won. Yes, he got out muscled by Bernard and I think size had a whole lot to do with his loss to Winky also. But the FACT remains that Tito took on the best his generation had to offer at the time and won.

People can discredit anyones record if you try. I can point out that DLH, lost twice to Sugar Shane a natural Lightweight. DLH got a present when he got the nod in the Strum fight. Who has DLH beaten? DLH beat an aging Chavez, got a controversial decision against an aging Pernell.

Who does he have on his wins list that separates him from Tito?

Ike Quartay (another controversial decision)
Fernando Vargas (Tito also beat him in convincing fashion)
Arturo Gatti?
Jesse James who started off at featherweight?
Oba Carr (After Tito had already defeated him and Carr had 2 losses)
Pernell (another controversial decision, Pernell was at the same skill level when he fought both Tito and DLH)


Tito fought and beat the very best at his time and he is a great Welter however he is not the all time great and neither is DLH. If you think he is then perhaps DLH should be considered an all time great promoter for making you think he is.

[K-DOGG]

lol...thats my point playa...he never lost as a WW...come on....so how could he not be the greatest??? He lost at middleweight....he ran away with the WW crown....no challenge so he left...

The point is history and who came before him and the talent pool he was fighting in. If he had fought close with DLH or knocked him out. He'd be Top 5, no question.

But, that's not what happened. De La Hoya, & Ike Quartey were the top Welters at the time besides Tito. Felix just fought one of them and failed to prove he was the better man.

With Robinson, you knew he was the best 'cause he beat the best.
Same with Leonard, Armstrong, and others. It's about more than winning. It's how you win and who you beat...and how you beat them.

If Tito had knocked out Camacho, that would have helped him; but the DLH fight is what hurts him, just as it hurts DLH's legacy. No one won that fight.

[K-DOGG]

You have forgoten David Reid and an undefeated Oba Carr. The one thing that can't be denied win or lose is that Tito took on the very best welters that were around at his time and won. Yes, he got out muscled by Bernard and I think size had a whole lot to do with his loss to Winky also. But the FACT remains that Tito took on the best his generation had to offer at the time and won.

People can discredit anyones record if you try. I can point out that DLH, lost twice to Sugar Shane a natural Lightweight. DLH got a present when he got the nod in the Strum fight. Who has DLH beaten? DLH beat an aging Chavez, got a controversial decision against an aging Pernell.

Who does he have on his wins list that separates him from Tito?

Ike Quartay (another controversial decision)
Fernando Vargas (Tito also beat him in convincing fashion)
Arturo Gatti?
Jesse James who started off at featherweight?
Oba Carr (After Tito had already defeated him and Carr had 2 losses)
Pernell (another controversial decision, Pernell was at the same skill level when he fought both Tito and DLH)


Tito fought and beat the very best at his time and he is a great Welter however he is not the all time great and neither is DLH. If you think he is then perhaps DLH should be considered an all time great promoter for making you think he is.

Scroll up....I mentioned the DLH situation. Also, I'm not dissing Tito. He did fight the best; but he didn't, as you say, qualify for All-Time-Greatness in his career. I may move him into the Top 10 Someday; but at this point in time I just can't do it.


Oh...and David Reid was overrated media darling. What's he done since?

[ROSEWOOD]

Thats terrible logic right there.

Sven Ottke was undefeated at super middleweight but does that mean he is the best SM ever?
HELL NO!

Its tough for me to say SRR at welter because there is no video footage of him at that weight. People are just saying this because they heard it from a boxing historian.

you are correct with that one...but its just my opinion playa..we are all here to voice them and thats mine..I will try my best to back every opinion i voice to the tee....so with that being said..Tito is the greatest of WW of all-time..Sven Ottke is unknown to many while Tito is known by all....thats a fact jack..

[IwatchBoxing]

The point is history and who came before him and the talent pool he was fighting in. If he had fought close with DLH or knocked him out. He'd be Top 5, no question.

But, that's not what happened. De La Hoya, & Ike Quartey were the top Welters at the time besides Tito. Felix just fought one of them and failed to prove he was the better man.

With Robinson, you knew he was the best 'cause he beat the best.
Same with Leonard, Armstrong, and others. It's about more than winning. It's how you win and who you beat...and how you beat them.

If Tito had knocked out Camacho, that would have helped him; but the DLH fight is what hurts him, just as it hurts DLH's legacy. No one won that fight.

DLH fight shouldnt hurt him, because thats Trinidads only controvesail fight he ever had. DLH had way more than one. When Trinidad lost, he lost every single round, so you know there wasnt no funny bussness. If DLH refused a rematch, than he should be the one hurt.

[K-DOGG]

I will be back in about an hour. This is getting good.

[Easy-E]

you are correct with that one...but its just my opinion playa..we are all here to voice them and thats mine..I will try my best to back every opinion i voice to the tee....so with that being said..Tito is the greatest of WW of all-time..Sven Ottke is unknown to many while Tito is known by all....thats a fact jack..

I know its your opinion, but it really doesnt matter how popular they are.

[Left2body]

If Tito had knocked out Camacho, that would have helped him; but the DLH fight is what hurts him, just as it hurts DLH's legacy. No one won that fight.

I think that is an excellent point. The MEGA fight that was suppose to give us the undisputed WW champ left more questions than it has answered and will hurt both of there legacy's.

But to be honest DLH was knocking out guys before that and was a boxer puncher. For that fight and that fight only he wanted to give his Pernell impression and it cost him. If DLH had fought the way he fought before that fight and they way he has fought after then I think it would've been decisive one way or another as it stands one man alone can't make an exciting fight.

[Easy-E]

DLH fight shouldnt hurt him, because thats Trinidads only controvesail fight he ever had. DLH had way more than one. When Trinidad lost, he lost every single round, so you know there wasnt no funny bussness. If DLH refused a rematch, than he should be the one hurt.

Notice how oscar isnt really in the discussion.

[IwatchBoxing]

Notice how oscar isnt really in the discussion.

If Tito had knocked out Camacho, that would have helped him; but the DLH fight is what hurts him, just as it hurts DLH's legacy. No one won that fight. - Quote, anyway, Trinidad is not #1, I'm just saying since Trinidads name is all over this thread. Hes top 5 or atleast top ten, fine with me.