Best Welterweight Ever?

[GreatestIam]

haha..... okay man whatever! but ya Floyd could outdo Ray..... This is a new ERA and people are looking for new GOATS if Floyd can go undefeated which is very likely and fight the fights his suppose to he could be the greatest and thats what i think!

Ray was great, he won 170+ fights with only 19 loses but how many of us actually got to see his fights one PPV, and live when he lived? I just know that Floyd is here now and his skills speak for them selfs, and as he is tested, we can say what his not, but at the current rate his on i think his got great potential to be!

[ROSEWOOD]

your reply has not much to do with my post, and you know what I mean by "jab"... not anynone's jab, not tito's jab for example

go look at the fighters in the list (especially the top ones, the ones of comparable size) think of how they fight (if you know how they fight) and answer yourself the question what would happen to tito in the ring with them

my point with that was jab or jab, he won his first 40 fight...it wasnt until he move up to middleweight that he lost....he rule welterweight...thats my point

[wmute]

I agree with some of your points but highly disagree with the ODLH one. Yes, I dont think DLH could ever lick the floor with Tito otherwise he would've done it. What are you mostly basing this on, Tito's losses to Middleweights? ODLH just like Tito went over his head when he went up to middleweight.

I think DLH's boxing gives Tito problems but Tito is a good counter-puncher also and I would wager Tito wins if they actually pull of the rematch.

I do believe that a prime Pernell would UD Tito though but I also think that a prime Pernell would UD DLH also along with 99% of the welter weights, Pernell is one of my favorite boxers and lived up to his nickname of Sweet.

BTW Tito's competition is on par with DLH's competition. DLH has controversial loss to Tito when his style of backing up and boxing was considered to passive. But you forget that this criteria of judging also gave DLH the decision over Pernell when I actually thought Pernell out boxed him and was the winner. DLH fan's can't complain because he has had his share of controversial decisions i.e. Pernell and Quartay. Every good fighter is gonna have those in his career at some point, not everyone can be totally dominating every fight when facing top fighers.

left2body, you misread my post:

my claim is the first part of the list would mop the floor with tito.

the ppl in the second part are too small to do so, but I would still pick them to win decisions if they fought against tito at 147

and I strongly disagree with tito being a good counter puncher against good oppositions (for an example good usage of left hook in counterpunchung a southpaw see judah-maywetaher), in fact when he beat the best fighters in his resume counterpunching was not a big part of it

competition: If we fdconsdier 147 I think tito's and oscar's comp are pretty even (tito wrecked some youngsters before oscar, but faced a completely washed up pea and never fought quartey, which happened to be the two most controversial wins for oscar)

to me dlh-tito is way more controversial than pea-dlh (and pea is also one of MY all time fav way way above oscar for which I have moderate liking, but I wasnt nearly as disappointed with the decision in the pea fight as is was in the tito fight), quartey-dlh comes closer, but it still isnt on the level

[K-DOGG]

Popularity. Not necessarily an issue, though it helps. Sandy Saddler was not a popular featherweight; but he's one of, if not the greatest one that ever lived.

Pernell Whitaker wasn't as popular as Julio Caesar Chavez; but he was a better fighter.

Trinidad had a great following because he had power. People love a knock out puncher, which is why a young Mike Tyson was so idolized; but he was not the best heavyweight who ever lived.

Another thing that hurst Tito is his longevity. While he did make 15 successful Welterweight title defenses and did give Carr, Campas, and De La Hoya there first defeats...he was never in one of those situations at 147 where he had to dig down deep and pull it out, except for the De La Hoya fight....and, as I've already stated, that fight hurt both me.

If Ray Leonard and Thomas Hearns had put on a show like that in 1981, we wouldn't be talking about either with the reverence we have for them today. Both of those men put it all on the line that night. Oscar should have won the Trinidad fight. He was proving himself the better fighter in the early going; but then went into prevent defense. Once he took away the offense that was keeping Tito at bay, Trinidad stepped it up...why not, he wasn't getting hit any more? Unfortunately, he couldn't close the show.

Imagine if Leonard hadn't hurt Tommy Hearns in the 13th, hadn't "gone for the whole boat" and put it on the line and Tommy kept boxing and ended up losing a decision to Ray....but without the drama. That's what happened with Trinidad-De La Hoya.

Oscar killed the drama and Tito couldn't revive it.

We can talk till our fingers fall off about Tito beating this welterweight and that welterweight; but without a convincing win over Oscar, his biggest fight at 147, we're stuck in a quagmire.

Tito may deserve to be in the Top Ten, the lower half; but I can't put him there yet. The memory of his career and his retirements are too fresh in my mind.

Compared to Ray Robinson, Ray Leonard, Jose Napoles, Barney Ross, Hank Armstrong, Carmen Basilio, and several others, Tito looks good; but not quite in their class.

In mythical match-ups, Robinson, Leonard, Napoles, and Armstrong all kayo Trinidad, IMO. Ross might lose to him; but I think he would probably outbox Felix. Basilio would either outbox him or wear him down ala Hopkins.

While mythical match-ups shouldn't play a huge role in ranking a fighter, it does put things in perspective. Robinson was knocking out middleweights while he weighted 147...Tito probably could too; but can you see anybody schooling a prime Sugar Ray? I can't; but it happened to Tito. He was lost worse than the Swiss Family Robinson against Hopkins and Wright. And even though they were middleweights, it was their boxing skill more than anythig else that beat Trinidad; and boxing is the name of the game....and their have been many well schooled boxers over the years who held the 147 lb crown. And whether Tito's more popluar or well known than them does not make him a better fighter.

[Rane-Ex54]

your reply has not much to do with my post, and you know what I mean by "jab"... not anynone's jab, not tito's jab for example

go look at the fighters in the list (especially the top ones, the ones of comparable size) think of how they fight (if you know how they fight) and answer yourself the question what would happen to tito in the ring with them

See your just taking shots at what Tito's weakness was. Everyone of those fighters you mentioned have there individual weakness's also. Tito was always attacking, so oviouslly the jab was the best offense for someone fighting him. You still can't deny his power, determination, and stamina. To beat Tito, you have to knwo how to move and be able to take a beating for round after round, which no one could do until he moved up to fight in middleweight vs Hopkins...

[ROSEWOOD]

haha..... okay man whatever! but ya Floyd could outdo Ray..... This is a new ERA and people are looking for new GOATS if Floyd can go undefeated which is very likely and fight the fights his suppose to he could be the greatest and thats what i think!

Ray was great, he won 170+ fights with only 19 loses but how many of us actually got to see his fights one PPV, and live when he lived? I just know that Floyd is here now and his skills speak for them selfs, and as he is tested, we can say what his not, but at the current rate his on i think his got great potential to be!

point taken...this is the new era....talent is not there like it once was...you didnt have to go far to find a great boxer in the past..talking tito era...but now you do....Pretty Boy is not on the hunt...he just wants that big payday...he needs more fights at the WW division..so the future is all you can hope for...lets first hope that he will stay long enough...

[wmute]

my point with that was jab or jab, he won his first 40 fight...it wasnt until he move up to middleweight that he lost....he rule welterweight...thats my point

ruled 147 if you consider that he won against oscar, which puts you in a minority (see latest poll)

my point is that if he faced one of the following he would be stopped

robinson
leonard
hearns
napoles
griffith

and if he faced one of the following he would lose a decision (minus don king... see dlh-tito, chavez-whitaker)

de la hoya
whitaker
armstrong
ross

that's it

[Easy-E]

haha..... okay man whatever! but ya Floyd could outdo Ray..... This is a new ERA and people are looking for new GOATS if Floyd can go undefeated which is very likely and fight the fights his suppose to he could be the greatest and thats what i think!

Ray was great, he won 170+ fights with only 19 loses but how many of us actually got to see his fights one PPV, and live when he lived? I just know that Floyd is here now and his skills speak for them selfs, and as he is tested, we can say what his not, but at the current rate his on i think his got great potential to be!

In part, i agree with you. NOT that floyd is the greatest WW of all time, but people are saying SRR is without seeing ONE OF HIS FIGHTS!

[ROSEWOOD]

ruled 147 if you consider that he won against oscar, which puts you in a minority (see latest poll)

my point is that if he faced one of the following he would be stopped

robinson
leonard
hearns
napoles
griffith

and if he faced one of the following he would lose a decision (minus don king... see dlh-tito, chavez-whitaker)

de la hoya
whitaker
armstrong
ross

that's it

ill take that...tito is my pick....

[RAESAAD]

haha..... okay man whatever! but ya Floyd could outdo Ray..... This is a new ERA and people are looking for new GOATS if Floyd can go undefeated which is very likely and fight the fights his suppose to he could be the greatest and thats what i think!

Ray was great, he won 170+ fights with only 19 loses but how many of us actually got to see his fights one PPV, and live when he lived? I just know that Floyd is here now and his skills speak for them selfs, and as he is tested, we can say what his not, but at the current rate his on i think his got great potential to be!

They had PPV back then?