Best Welterweight Ever?

[ROSEWOOD]

did you ever see footage of robinson?

a few bout on espn classics..thats it not too many hell not even 1/4 of his fights...most on this thread can say the same thing...

[blockhead]

you guys are all crazy, everybody knows that donald hoskins is the greatest of all time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Mr. Ryan]

1. Ray Robinson
2. Ray Leonard
3. Felix Trinidad

[Rane-Ex54]

1. no one except oscar

2. take the fighters in my list (the first part) and tell me which of their weaknesses would tito exploit, please. I am really curious... for example what kink in the armor of robinson would tito, as the great tactician he always was, spot and be able to exploit, with his great ability to adjust to his opponents. How would his stamina help him against fighters who fought 15 rounds, more often than he did 12.

how would he hit Napoles eonugh to win a round?

how would he survive hearns right hands? with his defense?

as much as I hate leonard, how on earth would tito be able to beat that crafty, fast, SMART s.o.b. (who also had an iron chin)?

and so on...

look someone said tito is #1 welter all time, that's very simply bull****, he surely has a spot in the second half of the top 10. (after the 30s, I am not informed enough about fighters fomr before the 15 rounds fights era).

No one is taking away his strong points or his wins (except one).

Ray Robinson is a great. I'm not denying that but he lost 19 times...so its oviously possible Tito could knock him out. yes? No? We'll probably never know. But Hearns Right hands, when you talking about power?? How bout Tito's Right Hand and Left Hook?? I acually think that would be a great fight right there. But Tito was more conditioned then Hearns. Hearns would loose focus and get tired here and there. Tito would capitalize on that and Leonard was to small and didn't have enough power. Leonard lost alot of rounds, and if you lost a round to TITO, with the power hit percentage he had...Leonard would be out.

[blockhead]

a few bout on espn classics..thats it not too many hell not even 1/4 of his fights...most on this thread can say the same thing...

my buddy got me a six dvd set of robinson fights for christmas last year. the guy was ****ing amazing. he had speed and movement like ali, but combined with one punch ko power.
on the dvd's there are two fights agains gene fulmer and in one of them ray drops a huge bomb right hand that sends genes mouthpeice into the seats and knocks him unconcious immediately, it is one of the most vicious ko's i have ever seen

[Rane-Ex54]

Oh yeah....and Oscar was looking beat those last 3/4 rounds. He was loosing steam. No matter what Tito Won that fight!! so ODLH shouldn't even be mentioned. He had the formula, but he wasn't good enough to win.

[GunStar]

Ray Leonard is the best, he beat Hearns, Benitiz & Duran at welterweight. Nuff said!

Ray Robinson is my second choice, dominated the division for a long.

Felix Trinidad dominated the division for a long time, he belongs at #3.

[Kid Canada]

If i`m not mistaken almost all of Robinsons losses(at least a dozen) were after his 40th birthday(he fought till he was 44) He was fighting guys 20 years younger than him on short notice because he blew all his money. And, he only ever lost once as a welterweight. That was to Lamotta, who he then beat the next 5 times they fought.

[K-DOGG]

Thats all bullcrap, to your knownledge, you forgot that Trinidad faced everyone, and was like the only guy to fight everyone, and anywhere. DLH fought everyone after Trinidad did, and Hopkins just waited at Middleweight for years, until Tito moved up, and set up a tournament, in which he came out 2nd! against four champions.

No need to get your panties in a wad. I've already given Tito credit for fighting everybody. Scroll up.
And what the hell do you mean by"...and Hopkins just waited at Middleweight for years, until Tito moved up,..."

What did you expect Hopkins to do? Move down to welterweight?

No one ducks a money fight, especailly not Hopkins. And why would he say no to a chace to get paid millions for kicking Tito's ass again? Why would Oscar turn down millions to avenge his only loss at that time?

No, it's easier to see why Tito would turn down money to keep from getting his ass kicked. That's more logical.

[wmute]

Popularity. Not necessarily an issue, though it helps. Sandy Saddler was not a popular featherweight; but he's one of, if not the greatest one that ever lived.

Pernell Whitaker wasn't as popular as Julio Caesar Chavez; but he was a better fighter.

Trinidad had a great following because he had power. People love a knock out puncher, which is why a young Mike Tyson was so idolized; but he was not the best heavyweight who ever lived.

Another thing that hurst Tito is his longevity. While he did make 15 successful Welterweight title defenses and did give Carr, Campas, and De La Hoya there first defeats...he was never in one of those situations at 147 where he had to dig down deep and pull it out, except for the De La Hoya fight....and, as I've already stated, that fight hurt both me.

If Ray Leonard and Thomas Hearns had put on a show like that in 1981, we wouldn't be talking about either with the reverence we have for them today. Both of those men put it all on the line that night. Oscar should have won the Trinidad fight. He was proving himself the better fighter in the early going; but then went into prevent defense. Once he took away the offense that was keeping Tito at bay, Trinidad stepped it up...why not, he wasn't getting hit any more? Unfortunately, he couldn't close the show.

Imagine if Leonard hadn't hurt Tommy Hearns in the 13th, hadn't "gone for the whole boat" and put it on the line and Tommy kept boxing and ended up losing a decision to Ray....but without the drama. That's what happened with Trinidad-De La Hoya.

Oscar killed the drama and Tito couldn't revive it.

We can talk till our fingers fall off about Tito beating this welterweight and that welterweight; but without a convincing win over Oscar, his biggest fight at 147, we're stuck in a quagmire.

Tito may deserve to be in the Top Ten, the lower half; but I can't put him there yet. The memory of his career and his retirements are too fresh in my mind.

Compared to Ray Robinson, Ray Leonard, Jose Napoles, Barney Ross, Hank Armstrong, Carmen Basilio, and several others, Tito looks good; but not quite in their class.

In mythical match-ups, Robinson, Leonard, Napoles, and Armstrong all kayo Trinidad, IMO. Ross might lose to him; but I think he would probably outbox Felix. Basilio would either outbox him or wear him down ala Hopkins.

While mythical match-ups shouldn't play a huge role in ranking a fighter, it does put things in perspective. Robinson was knocking out middleweights while he weighted 147...Tito probably could too; but can you see anybody schooling a prime Sugar Ray? I can't; but it happened to Tito. He was lost worse than the Swiss Family Robinson against Hopkins and Wright. And even though they were middleweights, it was their boxing skill more than anythig else that beat Trinidad; and boxing is the name of the game....and their have been many well schooled boxers over the years who held the 147 lb crown. And whether Tito's more popluar or well known than them does not make him a better fighter.

great post:

power and aggression delude a lot of people into making a fighter better than he is.

tito and oscar both ****** in their fight

I dont know if basilio could do tito, the fact that he dealt with robinson left hook is in his favor as well as his being lineal 160 champ, but I think he was too much of forward fighter (even with his skills, i dont think he had the right style to fight tito)

Ross and Armstrong are smaller than tito, that's my big concern. I know it is hard to pick anyone against armstrong, but again his style is not a great style to fight tito.