Jack Dempsey vs Today's Heavyweights

[ShoulderRoll]

Just like every single thing that has improved in life, Boxing has also improved. The facilities, the striking technique etc.

Boxing has more money pumped in from grassroots to the pros than ever before. It's only natural we'd churn out better Boxers over the years.

Boxing has not improved, though. In fact some of the techniques that were common in the old days are going extinct.

How many fighters try to imitate Floyd's defense but just can't pull it off because they don't have an old school trainer that knows how to teach them? Floyd was lucky to be taught by his dad who in turn learned from a 70-year-old trainer from Detroit named Darryl Williams.

Another example is James Toney. He was taught by 74-year-old Bill "Pops" Miller who learned to box in the 1930's and would make James watch tapes of Ezzard Charles.

If boxing was really improving modern trainers would take the knowledge of these men and build on it. Instead that knowledge is becoming lost.

[robertzimmerman]

Boxing has not improved, though. In fact some of the techniques that were common in the old days are going extinct.

How many fighters try to imitate Floyd's defense but just can't pull it off because they don't have an old school trainer that knows how to teach them? Floyd was lucky to be taught by his dad who in turn learned from a 70-year-old trainer from Detroit named Darryl Williams.

Another example is James Toney. He was taught by 74-year-old Bill "Pops" Miller who learned to box in the 1930's and would make James watch tapes of Ezzard Charles.

If boxing was really improving modern trainers would take the knowledge of these men and build on it. Instead that knowledge is becoming lost.

Great post.

[REMOVE SHARK 55]

Boxing has not improved, though. In fact some of the techniques that were common in the old days are going extinct.

How many fighters try to imitate Floyd's defense but just can't pull it off because they don't have an old school trainer that knows how to teach them? Floyd was lucky to be taught by his dad who in turn learned from a 70-year-old trainer from Detroit named Darryl Williams.

Another example is James Toney. He was taught by 74-year-old Bill "Pops" Miller who learned to box in the 1930's and would make James watch tapes of Ezzard Charles.

If boxing was really improving modern trainers would take the knowledge of these men and build on it. Instead that knowledge is becoming lost.

Some stand the test of time & some get rendered obsolete because they have no use in this day & age. I'm not going to pretend like they didn't have skill back then either & maybe some pros could pick up a thing or two.

Could you name some techniques that are extinct?.

Floyd 'wasn't' lucky either, he's a perfect example of second generation talent. How can you be lucky that your Dad taught you something?. He was breed to become a Boxer.

[ShoulderRoll]

Some stand the test of time & some get rendered obsolete because they have no use in this day & age. I'm not going to pretend like they didn't have skill back then either & maybe some pros could pick up a thing or two.

Could you name some techniques that are extinct?.

Look at the peekaboo style. Very effective as it made champions out of Floyd Patterson, Jose Torres, and Mike Tyson. But is anybody teaching it anymore? Once Teddy Atlas, Kevin Rooney, and Tyson pass away all the details of it are in danger of being lost forever. Unless they do something to preserve the knowledge.

Another example is the drop step. Read Jack Dempsey's book for instructions on how to do it properly.

Floyd 'wasn't' lucky either, he's a perfect example of second generation talent. How can you be lucky that your Dad taught you something?. He was breed to become a Boxer.

Floyd was lucky that his dad had access to a veteran trainer who was around during the Golden Age of boxing. The old school style and tricks that he passed on allowed Floyd to dominate in the supposedly superior modern era.

[jack p]

NOTHING IS NEW! Its all been done before

Dempsey weighed around 220-225 before he began training
According to him and reporters covering his pre-fight activities.
Where Dempsey lacks bulk is in his legs his upper body is that of 225 pounder its his legs are skinny.
I'm curious about improved techniques comment.
Boxing isn't rocket science .Only so many ways to throw a punch or to duck.
Do you think Klitschko's improved under Steward?
Or boxers in Joe Louis's day had improved
compared to 29 years before?.
Ok who taught Joe Louis ?
Jack Blackburn who learned in the early years of the 20th century
Well who taught Blackburn ? Someone who learned in the 1800s
Do you think Klitschkos improved under Steward?
I know Kalan does Kalan said "Klitschko was stopped 3 times before he got with Steward, had a chance to
learn new skills, and learned how to box correctly."
Yet who taught Steward? Jimmy Myland and Festus Trice Who taught them ?
So how can techniques be improved when all knowledge is passed down,
NOTHING IS NEW! Its all been done before
Cus Damato believed everything about boxing offensive and defensive techniques
Had all been invented by the 20's. Nothing new since then.He was right.
The success of bigger heavyweights is not because they have caught up skill wise
They have always had access to same learning source.
A boxer after a certain size bigness becomes a handicap..Too awkward, ungainly. off balance.Before a top notch 200=220lb
could exploit that.But the best American athletes don't want to become boxers
That's why its regressed in US;
Russia and other countries took over and their skill set is like it was back here in the 1910's
Mostly stand straight English classical style.Heavies are too overgrown so they're limited to that straight English classical style because the stylistic styles
the great American boxers excelled at' leave a fighter that doesn't have the athleticism to pull it off unbalanced
A guy 7ft could never fight like Ali cause he's to big he's already off balance
But taking a punch as a weakness is serious flaw an ATG has to be able take a punch
Why has a glass jaw detriment been overlooked by super size with limited technique proponents?
How can one rationalize an ATG list with no fighter being able to take a serious punch? Explain[IMG]https://********/YctsiUqvipg[/IMG]

[jack p]

If size didn't matter, boxing wouldn't have divisions

If size didn't matter, boxing wouldn't have divisions.

Correction if size didn't matter boxing wouldn't have
lighter divisions Only one heavyweight division.
They thought about making a super heavyweight
division but the big guys kept getting creamed.
Like Willard Dempsey, Carnera Louis, even more
recent Wladimer Sanders.
The funny thing was Sanders was easily 20-30 lbs
overweight which did nothing for his power but it effected his speed which didn't stop him from exposing Klitschko's glaring weakness. Wladimers inability to take a punch.
Dempsey had more firepower then Sanders.
Sanders impure punching isn't in the same class as Jack's pure "whole body behind the punch" punching.
Dempsey's weapon is his body weight
He was at his peak as a fighter the night he won
the title his body weight was moving like lightning.
He's constantly hurling his weight against Willard. A perfect analogy is a 190 lb weight being dropped off a roof landing on Jess's head.
Willard showed why he's head and shoulders above the
current crop of guys his size. Willard can actually take a heavyweights punch.Gunboat Smith hit Willard in the ear so hard it practically tore Willard's ear off.
Willard didn't budge an inch The gunner even had his
gloves loaded

[REMOVE SHARK 55]

If size didn't matter, boxing wouldn't have divisions.

Correction if size didn't matter boxing wouldn't have
lighter divisions Only one heavyweight division.
They thought about making a super heavyweight
division but the big guys kept getting creamed.
Like Willard Dempsey, Carnera Louis, even more
recent Wladimer Sanders.
The funny thing was Sanders was easily 20-30 lbs
overweight which did nothing for his power but it effected his speed which didn't stop him from exposing Klitschko's glaring weakness. Wladimers inability to take a punch.
Dempsey had more firepower then Sanders.
Sanders impure punching isn't in the same class as Jack's pure "whole body behind the punch" punching.
Dempsey's weapon is his body weight
He was at his peak as a fighter the night he won
the title his body weight was moving like lightning.
He's constantly hurling his weight against Willard. A perfect analogy is a 190 lb weight being dropped off a roof landing on Jess's head.
Willard showed why he's head and shoulders above the
current crop of guys his size. Willard can actually take a heavyweights punch.Gunboat Smith hit Willard in the ear so hard it practically tore Willard's ear off.
Willard didn't budge an inch The gunner even had his
gloves loaded

Lennox>Wlad/Vitali>Fury/Joshua/Wilder. Willard would get pulverised by the above. His style was limited & crude. I definitely wouldn't use him as any type of comparison to this era. His style along with every single Boxer from the previous depression era is outdated.

[jack p]

Lennox>Wlad/Vitali>Fury/Joshua/Wilder. Willard would get pulverised by the above. His style was limited & crude. I definitely wouldn't use him as any type of comparison to this era. His style along with every single Boxer from the previous depression era is outdated.

Why would you say Jess would get creamed when Willard can take their best punch but they couldn't take Willard's best punch.
Their size is a detriment in a boxing ring.
In a MMA type fight the above guys you named would rule.
Put Boxing gloves on your guys you handicap them.

For one their center of gravity is to high to maintain their balance, anytime they need to deviate from a straight vertical position they loose their balance.
Anytime they throw a punch, they are limited by their high center of gravity, keeping them locked into vertical position.
They have no mobility.
They move like an energized Frankenstein coming to life.
They can't bounce off their toes.
They can't roll with a punch.
They are slow, so slow they telegraph their punches.
They are suckers for a feint.
Which doesn't matter considering they don't know how to employ one.
How can you call that refined?

[REMOVE SHARK 55]

Why would you say Jess would get creamed when Willard can take their best punch but they couldn't take Willard's best punch.
Their size is a detriment in a boxing ring.
In a MMA type fight the above guys you named would rule.
Put Boxing gloves on your guys you handicap them.

For one their center of gravity is to high to maintain their balance, anytime they need to deviate from a straight vertical position they loose their balance.
Anytime they throw a punch, they are limited by their high center of gravity, keeping them locked into vertical position.
They have no mobility.
They move like an energized Frankenstein coming to life.
They can't bounce off their toes.
They can't roll with a punch.
They are slow, so slow they telegraph their punches.
They are suckers for a feint.
Which doesn't matter considering they don't know how to employ one.
How can you call that refined?

My point being a 6 ft 5+ giant from today is more competent than one from pre 1930s. You really disagree with this?.
I agree size could be a hinderance overall, you only have to look as far as Rahman, Oliver & Ross.

[Mooshashi]

Dempsey would be cruiserweight contender today, and probably champ with one of the belts. HW would e be difficult for him but he'd beat many top 20 guys.

And anyone who thinks Dempsey, the first truely modern boxer, is crude is simply not a student of the game.