Why do posters say Roy jones Achieved more then Mayweather?

[robertzimmerman]

P4P is the way were equalize boxers into fair fights , thats why divisions are divided into weight classes so a man fights his equal weight and size , that is P4P .

You cant compare a HW and lets say Rigo , but we can see with our eyes who the better fighter is if all things were equal , thats the meaning of P4P , No HW will have the speed and skills of a guy like Rigo , Ali was probably the closest .

And nobody is trying to make Floyd better , its about giving the guy his just dues for an outstanding career , the thread is about accomplishments and Floyd left Roy Jones for dead as far as accomplishments go .

I agree with you apart from your last sentence.

You have to look deeper than the stats, otherwise Manny is the most accomplished boxer in history.

[robertzimmerman]

Mayweather was a champion at 21 and remained a champion until he retired at 38 with a brief retirement of about 18 months. He never lost a fight. Jones was great at his peak but he can't match Mayweather's longevity or his consistent excellence.

True, but longevity and an undefeated record are only two factors out of many more to consider.

[robertzimmerman]

You didn't make anything irrelevant. You don't know the difference between rating someone's skill, and accomplishments, versus who is actually better. Manny pacquiao is a great talent and accomplished way more than Kovalev but he's not better than him. You can't be better than a guy you can't beat, nor any of his contemporaries. That applies to every competition. Just beause a bunch of boxing geeks got together and created some unprovable idea of p4p doesn't mean it's valid in reality. You can debate who is more accomplished and skilled but you can't tell a sane person that a 120 pound guy is a better than a cruiserweight. It's absurd. You don't know the difference between than and then, don't think you've explored an angle to this I haven't thought of.

Of course you can be better than a guy you can't beat.

I haven't agreed with much of what Reloaded and Larry have said, but they're right regarding rating someone on a P4P basis.

Ray Leonard couldn't have beaten Kovalev in a real fight. But he's obviously a better fighter on a P4P basis.

Floyd couldn't have beaten John Ruiz in a fight. But he's levels above him.

Manny Pacquiao is obviously a better fighter than Kovalev.

The examples are endless.

[robertzimmerman]

Because if you take Roy at the height of his career (i.e. 2003), he did accomplish more than Floyd at the height of Floyd's career up until Pac.

Roy went from JMW to HVWT (154-200+), while being undefeated and actually KO'ing opponents. That's over a 50 pound difference in weight and opponents. Roy was 193 lb's when he fought for and won the HW title. He gave up 33 lbs to John Ruiz. That's the equivalent of Floyd fighting at 154 lbs for the Cruiserweight title while starting at 130 lb's.

To put what Roy did in proper perspective, considering his size, it'd be like Ezzard Charles/Andre Ward fighting Manual Charr/Hasim Rahman or the like.

Whereas someone like FMJ started at 130 and went up to 154. Not really ground breaking material there when you consider guys like Sam Langford who went from Lightweight to Heavyweight.

Roy starting as a JMW and going to HVWT will most likely NEVER be done ever again in boxing, let alone in our lifetime. The fashion in which he did it will most likely NEVER be done again. Whereas, it's more likely for someone to start at 130 and finish at 154.

Now if you want to talk about being undefeated, Roy was actually 50-0 before suffering his first defeat. That is unless you count the bout in which he was DQ'd when in actuality he won by KO.

Great post.

[robertzimmerman]

He didn't and anyone who thinks so is a moron or bias.

A very ignorant post.

[robertzimmerman]

I disagree I think you will have a MW that can win a HW title down the road , it only depends on the timing , a great MW that can really move and box and a B grade sitting duck HW that holds a title , Roy could not have and would not have even tried to fight say a Holyfield or Lewis , he wouldnt have taken the chance with even a Ray Mercer , Ruiz was ripe and made to order , to win the HW belt is all well and good on face value but its not the same as beating the top guys of that time .


I agree lots in the future will win titles from 130 to 154 , not all belt holders are Elite fighters most are from B to A , youve got to break down the title win to see its true worth .

1. Roy tried to fight Evander on two occasions. Once in 1998 and once in 2003.

2. It's disrespectful to say that Ruiz was made to order.

[DannYankee]

Well for some people entertainment value is worth more than achievement is the only argument that can really be made. Just like there's no arguing who "achieved" more there is no arguing who was more "fun" to watch.

[robertzimmerman]

They can be more accomplished and greater in their bracket, but you can't be better than someone you can't compete against, and if you did, you'd be hospitalized. Being better in any competition is about being able to beat your competitor and their contemporaries. What complicates boxing is the divisions but the same principle stands. Keep thinking you're exposing me when you don't comprehend the absurdity of what youre saying. You're hopeless.

How can you not be better than a guy you can't compete against?

Ray Robinson couldn't beat a HW. But he was a better fighter than any of today's top 10 HW's.

A HW could only have beaten Ray because of the sheer size, strength and power they had, not because they were more skilled.

Floyd Mayweather couldn't beat Carl Froch in a real fight. Because he'd be in survival mode with his sole objective being to not get hurt. But he's obviously a better fighter.

[robertzimmerman]

lol I had to laugh at your pros and cons , the MW youre talking about is supposed to be the next coming of Hagler and 40 yr old Floyd starting from 130 and 20 yrs in the sport is retiring is supposed to fight him .

You dont care what class of cruiser weight , hmm I will pick the CW and I bet Floyd wins , not gunna look pretty but Floyd wont get touched all night .

And prime Roy Jones was not willing to fight the top HWs , he chose Ruiz one of those average fighters that just picks up a belt , Baldomire was a better class fighter than Ruiz .

Ruiz was awful to watch, but he was tough. A lot of decent HW's had hard nights with him. He wasn't a scrub.

[Larry the boss]

How can you not be better than a guy you can't compete against?

Ray Robinson couldn't beat a HW. But he was a better fighter than any of today's top 10 HW's.

A HW could only have beaten Ray because of the sheer size, strength and power they had, not because they were more skilled.

Floyd Mayweather couldn't beat Carl Froch in a real fight. Because he'd be in survival mode with his sole objective being to not get hurt. But he's obviously a better fighter.

He doesnt get it,no need to even respond to that guy,he's kinda of thick headed